Today, Steve is speaking with investigative tech journalist Geoff White, who has been covering tech and financial crime for more than 20 years. Listeners may be familiar with his popular podcast The Lazarus Heist for the BBC World Service, and now his new book, Rinsed: From Cartels to Crypto: How the Tech Industry Washes Money for the World's Deadliest Crooks, will be available from Penguin Random House next week.  Steve and Geoff discuss current trends in organized cybercrime, how these criminals are—or maybe aren’t—adopting AI, and the difficulties law enforcement still faces in helping the victims of these crimes.

Key Takeaways:
1.  Nation states and government agencies have been known to adopt tactics from organized crime gangs and activists – a sort of trickle-up effect.
2. As technological advancements are presenting criminals with new avenues for money laundering, law enforcement is not always able to keep up and instead is having to prioritize high level crimes.
3. The law enforcement landscape is a fast changing world, as agencies adapt and gain more awareness of cybercrime tactics relating to AI and cryptocurrencies.

Tune in to hear more about:
1. Cybercrime evolution, nation-state involvement, and tactics (3:31)
2. AI use in cybercrime, potential for innovation and defense (8:29)
3. Cybercrime and money laundering, with a focus on the role of technology and law enforcement (11:45)
4. Cybercrime, crypto, and organized crime evolution (15:59)

Standout Quotes:
1. “Sometimes the tools of organized cybercrime, gangs, nation states have also learned from hacktivists. From leaks from people like WikiLeaks or from Anonymous, they've learned the damage that a leak can do a leak of information can do. And that's fed into that disinformation piece nation states now extremely astute at getting in stealing information and then weaponizing that information to change elections, to change people's attitudes, to influence world events, the nation states have got both feet in to this cybercrime game.” -Geoff White

2. “I think maybe it's worth thinking like a criminal and understanding how thinking like a criminal is different to thinking like a different type of enterprise. The reason I enjoy thinking about organized crime and covering organized crime is because it's organized. These are networks, as you say, of professional, organized people. But they're not out to win customers. They're not like Microsoft and Google who wants to come out with innovation and innovative new products to win customers in their competition. No. They want to make money from victims. And frankly, as long as you're making enough money from your victims month in month out, you don't change. There's no reason to innovate. Crime gangs innovate when law enforcement and the force of authority stop them from making the money they usually make. That's when you innovate.” -Geoff White

3. “I think there was a time when, frankly, explaining Bitcoin to sort of rank and file police officers was a struggle. I think those days are gone … There's been this realization that things like cryptocurrency is something that law enforcement needs to be on top of.” -Geoff White

4. “As cryptocurrency gets larger, as more financial institutions get behind it, as governments get behind it, yes, it can make it more legitimate, it can expand the legitimacy of it. But it also creates more noise, if you like, for the criminals to hide.” -Geoff White


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From the Information Security Forum, the leading authority on cyber, information security, and risk management.