Exactly. And by the way, I think if

you think about long term projects, buildings, the K rollups using sovereign rollup style, these are labs and chain way both are planning to release a Bitcoin ZK rollup. Yeah, I'm following those projects. It's all about, you

know, I think how do you connect them to the chain that's a little bit more controversial, right? And are they actually, you know, could the actual users have some assurances of, you know, Bitcoin security being applicable to that? And that's a little tough. Yeah, especially with no

change. I mean, this is why I think 301 drive chains is two bits. The second one is a trustless peg in peg out mechanism. Yeah. I don't actually like that mechanism. Yeah. He's designed much personally either, but it's again, he's, he sees that need as

well. Exactly. And I think, you know, directionally, I think we should embrace these ideas. We can disagree about implementations, but I think just this missed them and say, oh, I don't want to see any, you know, share coins on Bitcoin. I think it's really undermining a lot of the value proposition that we've seen emerge in things like Ethereum as it relates to, you know, lending, as it relates to actually not trusting a third party to custody your bitcoins, which, you know, wrapped Bitcoin, the third largest, you know, collateral type in Ethereum is really just a big third party that's holding it. And doing more without really losing custody, which is, I think, a very cyberpunk kind of thing to

do. Yeah, it is. I really agree. I want, I love Bitcoin and I want to use my Bitcoin more. Yeah. It doesn't mean I want to buy cat jpegs, necessarily, but who knows? I would like to, I want Bitcoin to be more full featured. Another thing people point out a lot is we want things like privacy, better privacy in the world, by the way, I don't even mean on that just privacy is a, is a multi generational battle that has been being fought and will continue to be to be fought. I actually had an FBI agent on this show, Chris Tarbell and a former FBI agent. And he, I asked him this question about the battle between like Apple and the FBI during the San Bernardino shooter thing and then the clipper chip in the 90s and like, that's the same battle just constantly. It's just a certain concept. I asked him if we were destined to fight this battle against government forever. And he said, I hope so. It's like, because I hope they don't win. Because if things like we, we deserve to have this. Anyway, point being is it doesn't even have to be altcoins that get built on Bitcoin. It could be a privacy L2. It could be a, there's, there's uses that we should be able to play around with. I would like personally. Yeah. I would too. And if

you think about this concept of a, you know, Ethereum as Bitcoin's test that, you know, in Ethereum, I think was during the Byzantium upgrade of 2018, they introduced an opcode that verifies zero knowledge proofs, right? It's kind of tested in a wild multiple times. We're now seeing ZK rollups being launched on Ethereum, testing these, these different functionalities. You know, there are a few projects that are looking at the privacy and because ZK rollups, you can use for both privacy reasons and efficiency reasons can batch validation transactions. And that tends to be, you know, a lot more of like an Ethereum use case because scalability is kind of critical there. But privacy, you're absolutely right. They can be. I think if we think long term and, you know, beyond just like very use case driven, you know, proposals like drive chains and think about ZK rollups that could be used for privacy, scalability, composability, you know, functionality, all of these different things jammed into one. I think it's a lot more interesting because the only thing that this new hypothetical opcode would do when you just validate something from the outside on chain, which is, I think, a lot more scalable and it does limit what actually happens. You're going to have to actually, you know, change any sort of scripting within Bitcoin itself. It's just really a validation mechanism. Yep. Yep.

And before we wrap one last question, you've been in crypto quite a long time as a buy. Where are we in this long bear cycle bear market? How are you thinking about really as a long time Bitcoin or crypto researcher analysts? Like, how are you staying not cynical? And I mean, there's a lot of interesting stuff happening and maybe that's the answer. But where does it feel like to

you? This is probably the most painful. I remember the aftermath of SoCo wrote, shutting down where to be involved in Bitcoin was to be a criminal, like in the public eye, you know, still there was a strong cohort of people that believed in peer-to-peer markets and freedom. You know, 2017 was a wild year. Like you had

the proliferation of ICOs. When really from like $600 Bitcoin to $20,000 Bitcoin that year. Exactly. And then you had the aftermath of all these projects collapsing. Lots of scam ICOs and stuff. Even ones that weren't scams. Also, many of them failed, right? I mean, a huge like, it was like a huge burning hot and then fading, right? Exactly.

And then you always kind of default back to, you know, why the hell does this technology exist and excite you? And I think this bear market has been particularly painful because now I think this the previous bowl was one crypto one mainstream, really. And it went mainstream maybe for very bad, you know, reasons, at least like the perpetrators of the collapse of the massive. Yeah.

And even like the wide adoption at the time to it was it wasn't for necessarily the core things that we know make it core value, right? It was it was Jaypegs. It was just pure naked speculation, like casino type game and the scheme of things, right? Unfortunately, we didn't really explain to the millions of people that came in to Jimmy Fallon on TV holding up his NFT. He couldn't he had an F T couldn't tell you a single thing about why decentralization matters. That's what really was sad about it to me in retrospect was it was a mania, but we didn't and of course we've gotten more we did bring in more true believers that cohort is growing it

never felt growing. Absolutely. The user base by any metric has drastically increased. I think the challenge is on the use case fronts, right? What is it that we're solving at this point?