The world that we all grew up in is no longer a reality—although, in many ways, those in power are grasping onto it with the desperation of drowning men flailing, lashing out—furious, terrified, and in denial of what is staring them in their faces: imminent death. The rest of us are watching this process unfold before our very eyes—also terrified, but seemingly powerless. It’s a weird time to be alive. But when has it ever not been?

As we watch, experience, and feel the collapse of the state that we live within—or for those of us not currently living in the belly of the beast, the imperial world that this state rules over—it feels like an important time to explore this collapse. Specifically, it’s an important time to understand what’s happening in the imperial world order, and in order to do that, we must understand China.

In this conversation, we’ve brought on a regular guest—a guest who you all know and love—Jason Hickel, to talk about China.

Jason Hickel is a professor at the The Institute for Environmental Science and Technology at the Autonomous University of Barcelona, the author of the books The Divide: A Brief Guide to Global Inequality and its Solutions and Less is More: How Degrowth will Save the World.

In this conversion we first take a brief dive into modern Chinese history, looking at the pre-revolution period, the 1949 communist revolution itself, the Mao period, the Deng period, and the Xi period. We analyze what the rise of China means in terms of the current world order and the implications for the United States. We tackle some common questions and dispel some common myths about China—like, is China capitalist? Is it imperialist? We analyze some current events like trade wars and Tiktok bans, and finally, we explain why it’s crucial not to fall into the trap of U.S. propaganda when it comes to how we on the Western left analyze China.

Artwork: Berwyn Mure

Further resources:

Related episodes:

(Chinese) Socialism vs (U.S.) Capitalism
Better Lives for All w/ Jason Hickel
How the North Plunders the South w/ Jason Hickel
The Divide – Global Inequality from Conquest to Free Markets with Jason Hickel
International Development and Post-capitalism with Jason Hickel
How Degrowth Will Save the World with Jason Hickel
The Green Transition Pt.1 – The Problem with Green Capitalism
Listen to our ongoing series on China

Upstream is a labor of love — we couldn't keep this project going without the generosity of our listeners and fans. Subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com/upstreampodcast or please consider chipping in a one-time or recurring donation at www.upstreampodcast.org/support

If your organization wants to sponsor one of our upcoming documentaries, we have a number of sponsorship packages available. Find out more at upstreampodcast.org/sponsorship

For more from Upstream, visit www.upstreampodcast.org and follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Bluesky. You can also subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

THE KING OF CRENSHAW BONUS: The Xtra Lap

30 for 30 Podcasts

Introduction

Remember Everything You Learn from Podcasts