The Controversial Legacy of John Money

In this episode, Simone and Malcolm dive into the life and controversial experiments of John Money, the psychologist and sexologist who played a pivotal role in shaping modern concepts of gender and sexual orientation. They discuss the disturbing case of David Reimer, a boy raised as a girl following a botched circumcision, and explore how Money's fabricated findings continue to influence contemporary medical and social practices. The conversation also touches on the prevalence of dishonesty in trans medical research, the ethical implications of gender reassignment surgeries on minors, and the broader cultural ramifications of Money's theories. This sobering episode aims to unravel the psychological and societal impacts of Money's work, highlighting the urgent need for honest discourse and cultural sensitivity.

Malcolm Collins: Hello, Simone. Today we are going to be talking about the monster who invented the concept of gender and sexual preference. And when I say monster, he is not a monster because he invented these concepts or, or popularize them at least but for the things that he did in his life. And I don't think that anyone who hears this story is going to say any word, but Monster should be used to describe this individual.

Well, he, whoa. Or just. Just to go over the gist of it basically a young kid was assigned as a woman at birth because he had a botched circumcision. And so, this guy had him raised as a woman and then. While they were still under age, forced him and his brother to have sex and filmed it and took lots of pictures.

Oh. And then he wrote a bunch of papers about how this person was, was a perfectly normal woman now and then the doctors started taking either bot circumcision or intersex patients and doing these procedures on them like removing their genitals and stuff, even though it turns out that he had lied in all of his research and the kid actually had committed un alive and so had his brother and he did not at all adopt to the role of a woman.

And he continued this life for. Decades. And then some investigators figured out what really happened and a lot of stuff went back. And it is from this guy where all of the beginning ideology, where the modern trans and gay movement came from. Not, not that he, like gay people exist, like there were same-sex attractive people before him, but the way that we interact with this concept as a society today around sexual orientation and gender came from this guy and this faked experiment.

Simone Collins: This is, that's

Malcolm Collins: significantly worse than you probably thought, right?

Simone Collins: Monster doesn't do justice to someone like that. That's,

Malcolm Collins: and one of the things that's the kind you wanna talk about, point blank, you find

Simone Collins: them

Malcolm Collins: why he lied. Like what was his motivation in all of this?

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And I think in understanding his motivation for lying, we can get a better understanding of why D like the, the Traverse Stock Clinic didn't release the data that was leaked after it was shut down.

Mm-hmm. That putting people on puberty blockers was increasing their probability of unli. Why is this same chain of dishonesty so prevalent within existing trans medical research? Why do we have the warpath files? You know, we're, we're all these WPATH

Simone Collins: files,

Malcolm Collins: WPATH files we're, we're all of these documents from researchers in the space communicating were released and we learned that they had been intentionally manipulating their research and results and that they knew that this was a major problem.

So I think in understanding his psychology, we can understand how this is still going on today.

Okay,

Simone Collins: let's

Malcolm Collins: get started.

Simone Collins: Oh my gosh, sorry. I'm just still reeling from what happened to those poor children, those people. I'm, I feel so bad. Yeah. Well,

Malcolm Collins: I mean, it's,

Simone Collins: it's still happening then. Was he punished for this?

Malcolm Collins: Not really, no. Is he still alive, famous within the field? A a Simone? This, this is still happening today is the thing, right?

Like there are still people undergoing, like children undergoing medical procedures that all of the evidence says is going to basically destroy their lives. Yeah. Like we, we sorry I shouldn't say all the evidence, I should say the preponderance of evidence. There is evidence on the other side. But the pendulum is definitely, you can see our other episodes on that.

John Money, a prominent figure in psychology and sexology was born in Morrisville, New Zealand in 1921, and later emerged in the United States in 1947, earning his PhD from Harvard University in 1952. His work at John Hopkins University, particularly in the mid 20th century, focused on human sexual behavior and gender identity, where he coined terms like gender, role, and sexual orientation.

Money's research was groundbreaking, but became highly controversial, especially due to his experiments on gender reassignment, most noticeably the case of David Ramir. The David Ramir case often referred to as the. Joan Case began in 1965 when David initially named Bruce was born as a healthy male.

At eight months old, a botch circumcision resulted in the loss of his member prompting his parents to seek advice for money, . Adhering to his theory of gender neutrality, that gender is primarily learned and can be reassigned in early life. Advised the parents to raise David as a girl.

At 22 months, David underwent surgery to remove his testes and construct rudimentary female genitalia. He was renamed Brenda and was given estrogen during adolescence to promote breast development. Money. Tracked David's progress. Presenting the case as a success in his 1972 publication, man and Woman, boy and Girl, suggesting its supported feasibility of sex reassignment for children with atypical sexual autonomies.

So I'll note a few things here that are really core to the beginning of this. He was the one who suggested that this person be castrated. After the, the botch thing happened, he was the one who said, I wanna do this as part of a theory. So, so basically if you're like, why did he lie about this later?

I think he had this theory and if he had admitted. His theory was wrong. He would have to admit that he had this kid castrated and it was the wrong decision. Yeah. Basically as time went on, the horror of what he had wrought through his initial in mistakes became bigger. And I think it parallels what we're seeing was in the modern trans movement.

You know, we now know that in, in gender discontentedness and gender non-content news 2024 of 13 year olds who present as, or, or, or who are gender discontented and would, you know, so they would, would prefer to be the other gender. Mm-hmm. Around nine and 10 of them are perfectly comfortable with their gender.

Mm-hmm. If no treatment is, is, is brought to them if treatment is brought to them, then they end up with a around 50% un unliving. Risk rate which is wild to me, the amount of harm that can be done. And, and we're, we're just not talking about this. Right? Yeah. You know, especially young ages where we know that this is, is such a big problem right now.

Now I I, I'd also note here that his intuition aligned with the urban monoculture, as we've talked about when we're trying to explore sort of how the urban monoculture thinks and builds ideas, which is like the world would be more fair. If gender was not, you know, we are always like, well, the world would be more fair if everyone was born with equal capability.

So we'll pretend that the world would be more fair if there was no such thing as beauty and it was subjective. And, and so we'll pretend that, you know, the, the world would be more fair if gender didn't really exist. And it was just something that we were socialized it too. And so he tried to make that a reality.

However, the reality was starkly different. David never identified as a female experiencing significant gender dysphoria, bullying at school and emotional distress. At 14, he learned the truth about his biological sex and chose to revert to living as a male, adopting the name David, and underwent reversal surgeries.

This outcome was revealed. Not until 1997 when Milton Diamond and Keith Sson published a paper exposing the failure, debunking money's claims. Money's message used during the experiment were also deeply troubling. Reports indicate he coerced David and his twin brother Brian, starting at age six to perform sexual rehearsals, photographing these acts, enforcing genital inspections during annual checkups.

So photographing these acts at six. These practices described as aggressive and traumatic contributed to severe psychological harm for both boys. Money's behavior when loan was the twins was reportedly a particularly distressing raising significant ethical questions about consent, child welfare, and the explosion, the exploitation of vulnerable subjects.

Basically he's just like, I'm a scientist, so I get to do whatever I want with these kids. Like that is wild. And, and what, what is so interesting to me is when we look at this modern you know, horrifying, twisted thing that parts of the trans movement have become, that we have likened to sort of centa bytes, that you have this person as like the, the hell priest of it all.

Like the, the key. Evil behind everything that's come down from this. And we see that it didn't start with like a scientist making a mistake or something like that. Well, and this is also, this

Simone Collins: also shows that like sex positivity, like this isn't a cultural thing. Like trying to force people to be okay with certain things sexually that they're not okay with is gonna be extremely damaging.

To be like, see, you're okay with it. I'm gonna make you do it. I'm gonna photograph you doing it. I think theory think that's also deeply evil.

Malcolm Collins: What reason could he possibly have for needing them to do, you know, simulated stuff? Oh, we're

Simone Collins: all thinking the same thing. Come on. Well,

Malcolm Collins: no, no. We know. The the reason is is, is, is that is what this guy was, he was a Cena byte, you know?

And as we said, Cena bytes tried to create more Cena bytes. No, but

Simone Collins: I mean, I think he was also another thing that starts with p.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I, I, I understand, but you know, there's a degree of de degeneracy when I say, when I say I just mean somebody who lives for de Degeneracy somebody who has dedicated their moral structure and system around self gratification was out concern for how that affects the world or other people, or even their own future state.

Simone Collins: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: The. Psychological impact was profound. David suffered from the word you can't say on YouTube, depression, and despite. Marrying Jane at 22 and adopting three children. He struggled with the trauma. Brian was similarly affected and died from antidepressant overdose in 2002. David did an unli in 2004 at the age of 38.

Monies, theory of gender neutrality. Posited that gender identity could be malleable within the first two years of life. Advocating for surgical normalization, for intersex infants. His work initially influenced medical standards justifying thousands of sex reassignment surgery. However, rimmer cases failure challenged his approach demonstrating that biological factors such as testosterone exposure played a significant role in gender identity.

A 2016 review highlighted David's attraction to women, contrary to money's learning learning theory of home of gayness further undermining his claims. The term quote unquote, gender originally referred to grammatical categories and linguistics, EEG masculine feminine neutered, like in Spanish.

So he didn't invent the word gender but money in the 1950s introduced the concept of a gender role, which is how we use it today. Which he defined as social and behavioral expressions of being male and female, distinct from biological sex in his 1955 paper. Her mam, gender and preity in hyper or something.

He used gender role to describe learned behaviors and societal expectations, laying the groundwork for the modern understanding of gender as a social construct. So if you have ever seen one of those graphs that's like gender is different from sex, right? And they'll have like the little pictures and everything, and you get this with like a lot of the, the weird gender stuff.

This is just this guy's theory. That is what they are pushing now, not the whole of his theory note. The trans community certainly has a beef with this guy as well because he argued that, well, all of this is just what you learn at a young age and you can change this stuff. Right. You know? So that doesn't align with the modern trans communities ideas, but.

Everything about the idea that gender is different from sex is monies, theories that were justified with this initial study.

Simone Collins: Wow.

Malcolm Collins: Also the concept that sexual orientation is like this important thing that we should be like paying attention to or revering. And all of that is, is from him, which is very different from our theory of sexuality.

If you look at any of our writings, like the Pragma Guide to Sexuality, you can see our model of sexuality. I. Which is to say that sexuality should just be thought of as a series of arousal patterns to certain stimuli. And sometimes those stimuli are male, sometimes those stimuli are female. Sometimes they're things that are neither male or female.

And each of those individual stimuli should be thought of as either having a positive or negative modifier to them. Where we argue that disgust appears to be arousal operating was a negative modifier in anything that causes disgust in sub popular. Subpopulation is gonna cause arousal in another subpopulation and vice versa.

You don't see this with other emotional states. Things that cause fear in subpopulations don't cause arousal in other populations. So, it appears that what happens when people get unusual arousal patterns is either the volume meter of the arousal is, is off or you get a sign flip from disgust to arousal or arousal to discuss.

And we point out the reason why, like even thinking about sexual orientation is so dumb, is the rates of for example. Straight men or men who otherwise identify as straight who are either un aroused by, like they're aroused by everything else about a woman but not the primary sex characteristics.

So the below the belt part and, and or who are aroused by, you know, nothing about males, but the below the belt part is higher. It's about twice the rate of the men who are aroused by everything that's associated with a male figure. And, the, the, the, the, this doesn't make sense if you're trying to draw like a from here to here on a sexual orientation.

It, it's more just, okay, here's a collection of arousal patterns. The problem with my arousal pattern theory is it takes what today. Like people are like, well, this isn't a fetish, this is a sexual orientation. And what we would say is. No sexual orientation is a choice to satisfy specific arousal patterns and an arousal pattern that is tied to a human isn't particularly for any conceptual reason.

Different or more elevated than an arousal pattern that is tied to another stimulus. Like this could be dominance displays, this could be you know, feet or something, right? Like this could be any, any number of, of things. Speaking of discussed creepy cos or like a scat, you know, I, I don't see why it makes sense to separate these, these categories.

But if you, if you don't, then. This causes a big problem for a community that is looking for special rights based on an identity that they have separated from the fetishes, but that is based on arousal patterns. And that is only possible if you go off of this guy's theories rather than my theories, which I think are much more supported by the evidence.

And you can read, we wrote a whole book on this that yeah, for example, ALA said it's, it's, it's a really good book on sexuality and she really knows sexuality research so. You know, if she thinks that yeah, this is really cogent and well thought through on like how all this evolved and how the patterns actually work then it probably is one of the best sources out there for studying this.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And again, like per the catechism of the progressive urban monoculture, his views were correct because. The most convenient thing would be that you can just blank slate someone and make them have whatever sexuality is most convenient and whatever gender is most convenient given the circumstances.

Mm-hmm. And that's unfortunately just not true like yours is, is the reality version of this that like actually a lot of people are turned on by things that are like really not ideal. Super, super not ideal. Yeah, like a lot of women are super turned on by. How shall we put it? Non-consensual surprise sex.

But that doesn't mean they condone it or want it. Yeah. It just, it just sucks. Right. And like, I think this, this does cast light on how that ideology plays out differently. Well, yeah. And why And the damage of acting as though things are, as though they would be in an ideal world because we don't live in an ideal world.

And the monstrous things you end up doing inadvertently at best. By pretending in it's today, it's an ideal world. It's, it's, what you've described is just so beyond the pale for me.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, no, it is, it is beyond the pale of, I think, what any like, decent thinking person could and, and, and consider, like this guy, the parents went to him because he was seen as an expert.

He, he made this decision and then he essentially groomed the kids throughout his entire childhood, you know, using him like. That this is horrifying to me that this was carried out and this guy was, was considered like a normal, mainstream academic for a long period of time. And this stuff was, was, was known about and, and not put out there, but it also shows in the modern community how much harm came downstream of the and I think also the idea of sexual orientation as, as I've mentioned here mm-hmm.

Why do we elevate specific arousal patterns over arousal patterns and then normalize them with an individual identity? There's no reason to do that aside of this guy's work, and I also really disagree with the broader way that he describes gender roles. I think we can talk about the ways that men and women are biologically different.

And then we can talk about cultural gender expectations. But you know, I think a lot of the way that people choose to present gender displays and stuff like that can be very fluid without needing to categorize them as something evert. But. As soon as you bring up this idea of gender role, well now all of a sudden you can't have tomboys.

Tomboys are, are, are, are wrong in some way. For those who don't know. The term tomboy in English means a girl who acts, who is like into football and wears a, a backwards baseball cap in jeans. You know, this, this is now seen as wrong. Even if that is, I. The normative gender role from the culture that you and I come from, that we both come from the Backwood slash Greater Tion cultural region.

We've talked about this in other episodes but within that cultural region, that is the way the ideal woman acts. The ideal woman, you know, does hunting and fishing and, and has a gun and a knife collection and, and those are like Simone when, when she first met, he used to shout off her knife collection.

That is a normal femininity within our cultural. Region. And it, it, it, because that wasn't the dominant culture. Now all of a sudden, women being born into that culture, were, were being categorized as aberrant or not feminine enough. And we did an episode on the death of the tomboy that goes into this a lot more on like the Noodler girl who's from this culture and she catches these big catfish.

And other like girly girls that were from cultures that take where women take on a more feminine role. It's such as, you know, Muslim cultures and Catholic cultures were criticizing her of, of being very girly and, and not being the type of thing that you should wanna show off or that a guy would want.

And I'm like, well that's a cultural preference. And it might even be a, a a, a arousal pattern preference that gets to some extent informed by, because, you know, we co-evolve along our culture. The culture that you are exposed to, like personally actually kind of interesting. I get almost no arousal from girly acting girls.

Like, like prissy girls. I, I find them like kind of gross. You know, and, and so I think that, that, when I say girly, I mean like overly, you know, perform hyper feminine, feminine gender displays. I, I don't. I'm not into that.

Simone Collins: So higher voices and lots of frills and pinks and bowes and things like that.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. The sort of high maintenance act.

Simone Collins: Ah, okay. So not even necessarily like youthful girl acting, but just hyper-feminine acting.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. The, the hyper-feminine act being

Simone Collins: squeamish or, okay, okay. I get it.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, you, you've always seen that about me even, even in like. As I said, I think like one of the anime girls that I, that I like the most is Tom Whan is a girl.

Oh, that's, and it's an anime on a very you know, tomboy girl. But that's, that's just been always, you know, my, my cultural background. I think, not admitting again that these things. Change between cultures and that people may have, I, I identify with different cultures. And note here, I'm not saying that gender is entirely fluid, but I'm saying gender can, to a degree, be specialized for different cultural contexts.

And you can't just make up what it means to you. I mean, you, you, you can and, and some people might have aberrant displays of it, but you know, it's, it, it's not necessarily gonna work as we saw in this guy's experience. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So anyway, sexual orientation money did not invent the term sexual orientation, but was among the first to use and popularize it in academic discourse.

In the 1970s, he employed sexual orientation to describe an individual's pattern of sexual attraction, EG, heterosexual gay or bisexual framing. It was as a psychological and behavioral phenomenon. So he, he, he came up with that distinction. Heterosexual. He used another word that's offensive now and then bisexual.

In his book 1988 book, gay, straight and in between the sexology of erotic orientation helped formalize the term in sexology, emphasizing its distinction from gender identity. While earlier terms like sexual preference were used, money's contr. Oh, so before this, it was sexual preference. He normalized sexual orientation and, and the reason why sexual preference was pushed against later is it made it sound like a choice of an individual and could undermine the, the ideology that the LGBT movement was pushing at the time.

Now, I will note that I believe that, that, that they are right about that. It's not a choice. What, what arouses you is not a choice. But as such, it's also not something that you have to do or want or approve of either. , He argued that gender would learn through socialization and popularized the concept. He also established one of the first gender identity clinics in the 1960s promoting surgical and hormonal interventions for gender reassignment, particularly in intersex and transgender individuals. He is work legitimized medical approaches to align physical bodies with gender roles as seen for his advocacy of the David Rimmer reassignment.

Now why did he lie? Like, why, why? Like, he knew and we now know that he knew when he first published this stuff, he, the kid was six. He didn't have a lot of information at that time, so he might have not known when he first published it, but he definitely knew it was in the first few years after publishing it.

And so why didn't he go back? I think there's the few. One is, is he would have to admit the harm that he did. Two is imagine the harm to his professional reputation. Better to just try to keep it quiet. Hmm. I mean, of course it was gonna come out eventually. This was not working Right. You know?

So I don't like. One of these individuals who just like doesn't take time to think, oh my God, I need to hit the, the panic button right now. I need to hit the stop button right now. He never went back and like apologized or explained why he did all of this or so I, I think that his position and the fact that he never accepted what he had done aligns very heavily with I think a lot of, the, the because we've seen this with like the, the Traverse stock Clinic and stuff like this, the, the. Overlap between the Centa Byte lifestyle and the people who push this stuff is really, really high. It's not like just this guy, it was the Trata clinic. That was the case of the one doctor who worked there who would go down and like, like chat up underage boys in a nearby park or something.

And try to get them to, to go to the facility. Like this is a behavior that we, we see. Repeatedly in a lot of these communities. And I think that we need to ask ourselves why, why do these two things so often overlap? You know, w in our big episode on, you know, the life of a c byte, where we go into valence, this, this trans reporter who attacked cure shift for saying totally normal and true stuff on her stream.

That immigrants had a higher fertility rate than the. You know, non-immigrant American population. And she goes, oh, she's a great replacement theory. It's, it's like, what do you, Hillary Clinton said this, like, we, we have that episode where we like, this is not in any sort of conspiracy theory.

That's just like a fact. She's not like, and it's because of the Jews or something. She said a completely reasonable thing and you tried to destroy her life over it. But like, okay, so what does that correlate with? Oh, well. This person apparently on, you know, video games with minors would put like a vibrator in and use that for their, you know, this is, this is with, without the minor's consent, of course, the minors did not know that they were playing.

Was this older individual. And it, it's, it's something that we just keep seeing over and over and over again. And nothing to me could be more horrific. One of the things I was just thinking about today is like, imagine if, and I don't know, I. If, if trans people are real. But if they are real, the horror, you would feel as a trans person that your movement was taken over by these people.

That'd be like the prenatal movement would be taken over by like white nationalists or something. Like it would be really horrifying from our perspective. Hmm. And yet. You know, that, that, that is what happened to the, because if you look at the early, like for example, trans activists like Buck Angel and Caitlyn Jenner they've been completely expelled from the movement when they tried to be like hey, like, we don't actually support like the stuff with the kids, right?

Like, we should probably be walking this back a bit. You know, we, we, we should actually be looking at the research, right?

And I should note here, while we're gonna do a separate episode on this article, the Atlantic, you know, mainstream progressive newspaper, published an article recently the Liberal Misinformation Bubble about youth gender medicine, how the left ended up Disbelieving Science. And if we look at, for example, a quote from it, , and it's talking here about.

Well, if you do not get your kid gender reassignment surgery, if you do not affirm their gender, they are more likely to unlive themselves. It says in response to this, and this is mainstream leftist publication, mind you, but there is a huge problem with that emotive format. It isn't true when Justice Samuel Alito.

Challenge the A CLU lawyer chased down and got strang go on such claims during oral arguments. STR made a startling admission. He conceded that there's no evidence to support the idea that medical transition reduces adolescent unloving rates. At first, Strang dodged the question saying that research showed that blockers and hormones quote, reduce depression, anxiety, and aliveness.

That is. Unloving thoughts, even that is debatable according to reviews of the research literature. And here they're, , citing the study hormone therapy, mental health and quality of life among transgender people, a systematic review and another study. Pediatric gender medicine longitudinal studies have not consistently shown improvement in depression or unliving rates.

but when Alito referenced systematic review conducted in the casts report in England, str Geo conceded the point quote, there is no evidence in some, in the studies, , that this treatment reduces completed. Unloving rates, he said, quote. And the reason for this is that completed unloving, thankfully admittedly it's rare, and we're talking about a very small population of individuals with studies that don't necessarily have completed rates within them.

In quote, here was the trans right movements, greatest legal brain speaking in front of the nation's highest court. And what he was saying was that the strongest argument for the hotly debated treatment was in fact not supported by science.

What's really chilling to me is that their top minds, like the people who are most educated on this, obviously the rank and file don't know what they're talking about. They're not up to date with the science. They're just repeating talking points. But the top guys, like this lawyer knows. That he is arguing to put kids on puberty blockers when there is no evidence that this helps them when they don't understand what they're committing to, , when this is gonna sterilize them for life, when this is gonna cause.

Lifelong dependency on medications, , for gender reassignment, even not just puberty blockers for minors. So some of these individuals, , these people in the horror of what they are committing and at scale right now, I. Are no different from Joe Money because there is no legitimate explanation. There is no hiding behind.

Well, the, I I thought that the research said they are now just trying to cover up the research, , like Joe Money did when it turned out that his initial theories were wrong. If you want to go back and be like, Hey, this guy deserves some punishment. Well, he's long gone at this point, but these people are still doing this stuff and they're still causing the same amount of harm castrating children, and forcing them into weird sexualized situations.

To have your community so overtaken by. These types of individuals who are still the dominant voices. As I pointed out, like elect the memo who recently did a Netflix special you know, had the quote about, you know, the little girls are not that innocent.

Who, who are in the bathrooms, you know, like they're kinky too. Like these, these people. You just keep seeing it over and over and over again. And it's. It. I, I think the reason is, is that when you loosen sexual norms within one area, it's very easy to justify loosening them across the board.

Mm-hmm. Especially when you self-identify as either a, a person in a position of authority or a victimized minority. Do you have thoughts, Simone? Because you haven't really,

Simone Collins: I'm just, I'm so terrified by this. Yeah. I.

This bad, this this real bad. I, I, I don't know. I just didn't know. But I also didn't realize that this concept of gender roles was at least articulated so late because people talk in the context of history about gender roles incessantly. Not that there were not gender roles before, but I didn't realize that they, this concept of calling them that was so recent and also from someone who.

No, I hate so Fahe. So this is surprising all around.

Malcolm Collins: And I think I had a, a term that I would promote as an alternative is, is is cultural gender norms. Yeah, that makes sense. Heavy understanding that they deviate even within a country, right? Like, oh yeah. Really, really heavily within a country.

Mm-hmm. Like this is the, when people are like, I don't understand, like the difference between like backwoods culture and like deep south culture, the Cavalier cultural group. Gender norms is a huge area where they differ. Mm-hmm. In the, in the backwoods greater Appalachian cultural region.

Genders are fairly e egalitarian. There's not that much difference between a man and a woman. In terms of their status. You, you typically are searching for a woman based on her fortitude. Her ability to defend the land, as we've talked about, was like Daniel Boone. When somebody was talking about his wife, they were talking about, oh, you know, she's really good with a rifle.

She's very good at defending the property from Intru. Like, that's what they thought to say. Like, not she's beautiful or anything like that, or she's, she's smart. Like she's smart and had a good conversationalist, is what the puritans would always value in a woman. And in the south they valued more traditional femininity , and attractiveness and ability to sort of run a household.

And, and like that's okay to have different gender norms. And I think in our society today, because you know, intercultural marriages are so normal, you basically need to establish through contract what gender roles your marriage is gonna be based on.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Because you, you know, even if you're, you're, you're like two white Christians coming together.

If one of you is from like the Cavalier Cultural Group and the other is from like the backwards cultural group you might find yourself in something of a shocking, you know, situation in terms of cultural expectations around what's expected of you. And I think that that is. Something that, that is really undermined by individuals who try to push this idea of sort of pan cultural.

Now, I'm not saying that there aren't pan cultural differences between males and females, but these should be thought of as gen. These should be thought of as the way men and women are biologically different from each other. And your psychology is part of your biology. If it's you know, an inborn trait, well, also admitting as we always push on this podcast is that psychological preferences of individuals co-evolve with their culture. And if their culture has you know, sort of aberrant psychological preferences when contrasted with other cultures around something like gender norms, I.

They're going to act in a way that's really different. And that's fine. Like we need to get better at accepting the ways that we are different as a society. And the urban monoculture acts as a huge impediment to that because it demands that we accept that humans have no. The preferences, predilections or abilities that are inborn and different between groups.

Well, I

Simone Collins: think the other really big issue though is we need to stop making a big deal out of gender. The whole reason these, these boys were put through this, which was such a terrible, just too many human rights violations here is because their parents freaked out and were like, oh, well, okay. There was a, a, a botched procedure with his private parts.

Now we need to rethink everything about his gender. No, he just had a botched procedure with his private parts, like maybe they consulted surgeons to see if they could do reconstructive surgery or not. Maybe they didn't, but you could also wait and see how technology advances and see what he wants to do when he's old enough, like.

The fact that they had to make this about gender in the first. Well,

Malcolm Collins: Simone, I'm gonna push back a bit here. I do agree from our cultural perspective. So if you take the the backwards cultural perspective, because we're a very gender egalitarian cultural group. We would not see that much importance to gender.

Like, we're like, well, you know, both roles, both genders need to be able to defend the property. Both genders need to be able to make a living. Both genders need to be able to handle the tough work, et cetera. We would say, oh yeah, but also like he is versus balls. Like

Simone Collins: there's, there's no reason why this.

No, but the point I'm making

Malcolm Collins: is gender is actually very important. In other regions, like in Muslim traditions, gender is hugely important and the cavalier cultural tradition, gender is hugely important. Is, is is just, you're sort of in a position of cultural privilege where you can say like, why do you even care about gender anyway?

Because our culture just doesn't care about gender that much, which is why we raise our girls to be. You know, was, was, was more boyish names to be more tomboyish because that is what our culture does. But I think yeah, but this

Simone Collins: hyper focus on like gender also concentrating in one body part when, as we know from both human sexuality, no, I can agree with and from a scientific level, like this guy was very, very male.

And he'd been mutilated in one part of his body. Like, but

Malcolm Collins: I, I, I can agree with that, but I, I think that we have to keep in mind where we're dealing with a degree of cultural privilege and how we can address this and our answer for our family, which is just don't like our oldest kid who's five still.

We, we had a conversation with him in the car today, like it's actually becoming a problem at this age. 'cause he's five does not understand what gender is. He cannot, when we ask him the, the gender. Yeah. Is so-and-so

Simone Collins: a boy or a girl? I feel like,

Malcolm Collins: no, we're not talking about like strangers. We can ask him the gender of his sister, which we did today.

Yeah. He is like, he got it wrong.

Simone Collins: He's definitely a boy.

Malcolm Collins: This Yeah. He, he was very confident in his wrong answer as well. Yeah. He gets it right 50% of the time almost. Exactly. Yeah. Which shows it is a pure guess for him. Mm-hmm. He has no idea what gender is. And it might be because we, and then we're not like raising him gender neutral or any sort of experience that No,

Simone Collins: I always try to correct because the problem is like when we, I take 'em out in the morning to, to parks and stuff and they talk loudly.

For everyone to hear about everything they think. They, you know, are like, oh, look at him running. Or like, look at her doing this. It's so offensive to older people because they don't

Malcolm Collins: know that he's always Yeah, they're like, they,

Simone Collins: I feel like, yeah, he's, he's insult. Like, why is that man not letting us pet his dog?

And like, you know, old lady glares at me and I'm like, oh. And so I'm like, every time I'm like, it's, she's a woman. She's a woman. And then like, after they pass, I'm like, you know, here are the things to look for. Like, but actually

Malcolm Collins: this is really interesting despite neither our son nor our daughters, so neither of our sons nor neither of our daughters can consistently get gender correct.

They, they do not know what gender their siblings are. They even, how, like we, our, our daughter wears dresses and I wear dresses. I would, the point I was going to make is despite not having a concept of. What gender is or what gender they are, they act in very gendered ways. Our daughter really likes accessorizing, really likes wearing like little fancy things.

She really likes wearing gendered clothing. And. And this to me is really fascinating because it seems to indicate that you don't need a concept of gender to fall into pre evolved gender roles even within a family like ours. But what's also interesting is I can already see the way that.

Female gender display is different in our culture within our daughter. Huh? So even though the kids don't have an under, well, she fights with her brothers all the time. Like in terms of sock bopper or fist fights and everything like that. She really enjoys fighting. Just as much as one of the boys do.

Which is, I, I would guess probably not part of the gender norm package I would get if I had a daughter. And I was, people can answer in the comments, if you're from a different cultural group, does your daughters like fighting as much as your sons? Or. Do only your young sons like fighting.

And it is aberrant for our daughter to like fighting in addition to all the accessorizing and dresses and everything like that. But yeah, very interesting.

Simone Collins: What do we do going forward to stop bad things from happening to people like this?

Malcolm Collins: I mean, part of the problem is, is the, the, obviously our generation's version of this is the gender reassignment surgeries being done on children.

Funny, it's, it's the same thing that they were for him. So, gender reassignment surgery's being done on children people who can't consent. So, but, but stopping that is incredibly difficult because it is. Become sort of a priest cast of the urban monoculture and a really sort of untouchable cast.

And our new book that I'm writing right now, we are going to explore why that is the case, how they became the priest cast. But this sort of like a, a eunuch fully life dedicated. It's mostly because they can't go back anymore. It's the core reason I think it's. It's kind of obvious they are. And if they try, then they get completely exercised from public life.

You know, whether you see this with Buck Angel or Caitlyn Jenner, just the entire community immediately rounds and attacks them. So there is no criticizing the excesses of anyone who uses this label. And the reason I say use this label is it's pretty clear that some people who are using the label are just degenerates and are using the label for protection.

Which is you know, scary as well that we have allowed this to happen. So I mean, you know, it's, it's fighting again, and this is part of why I think all the rest of our advocacy would be a lot easier if we just held to the line of. Well, the, the whole trans thing's okay, whatever, like, there, there's clearly nothing wrong going on here.

Like, I support some religious groups blind like we do with gay people. With gay people. We're like, well, I support some religious organizations ability because I can support cultural sovereignty to say I'm not okay with this, but I support the people who are, you know, of age and like wanna get married and everything like that.

And if they want to, then go ahead, right? Like cultural sovereignty is, is the center of my moral system. That said uh uh, so it would be so easy if we just went with that, with all the trans stuff. And the reason I don't is because I just think that there is so much active harm being caused right now that I, even if it hurts other causes that I think are really important, it is worth wrapping that advocacy together.

Simone Collins: That's fair. Yeah. All right. Well. That was sobering, but I'm glad you told me about that. Glad to know. I guess, I mean, not happy to know, but it's better that I do know, if that makes sense. Hopefully everyone else feels the same way.

Malcolm Collins: Yep. Alright. Who, how, I wonder how demonetize this one's gonna get. I'm always, we try

Simone Collins: to be really careful with vocabulary choice, so

Malcolm Collins: I'm gonna, I'm gonna go through and try to delete anything that can get us demonetized, so we'll see.

You guys all have to be creative in how you piece together what's being said

Simone Collins: clearly. Yeah. My gosh. I love you. Love

Malcolm Collins: you.

Simone Collins: I already sent the other link so we can just go straight there. I. Record access to not sabotage us,

Malcolm Collins: okay? Mm-hmm. Podcast topics. Oh, I gotta tell our audience the most hilarious thing, Simone. , for you guys who don't know, that's the the v tuber who's like a little lolly vampire girl. That was black hair. And it's played by a guy. You think that that

Simone Collins: is, sorry.

No, just sounds just like it's not, I played, I played their audio side by side and it was really close.

Malcolm Collins: She thought that that was the guy from Clownfish tv.

Simone Collins: They sound super similar. I mean, you listen to it though, right? They're both like famous, like why would you have these two? And they have the same politics.

Like I know, I know. They have the same politics. Isn't that interesting? It's just that some people like to hear about you through the lens of Disney and the Marvel universe as a married parent. You know, some like to hear you as a vampire girl, and you know what we've learned. Since our very first startup, that anime is extremely polarizing.

That's true. So, you know, to be a v YouTuber is to decidedly restrict your audience forever. I, I mean, I mean an anime v YouTuber, because he's, he's technically v YouTuber through clownfish TV as well.

Malcolm Collins: Oh yeah, true. Because he uses those little drawings to do the exactly.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I'm just saying though, neon from Clownfish TV

Malcolm Collins: is secretly ran v YouTuber.

Simone Collins: It got to the point where I was like playing their videos simultaneously and being like, mm, no. They would've had to like switch out their audio regs or something. Like, it's not exact, it's not exact.

Malcolm Collins: You, you and your conspiracies. I've told people, one of the early conspiracies on us, the first time we went viral or one of the early times we went viral is that we were actually the same person.

Because they said we looked too similar and two people couldn't have such crazy views. And so we must be one person cosplaying as the other, and pretending to be in a relationship. Have they not

Simone Collins: even heard the term Folia do? I mean, like most people hadn't until it was a wine brand. But still, I feel like you should have learned it by then.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, that we're both crazy. We're in a little a fo ado Crazy Yes world here where we believe that we're reading all these statistics about falling fertility rates. Where we believe for whatever reason, like the far left, divides human dignity based on their you know, ethnicity and gender. Even, even though they don't do that at all.

Yeah. What, what'd you think of the book? We're writing a book. We got contacted by a real publisher this time who might wanna publish a real book by us. Maybe

Simone Collins: we'll see after they read the intro. I'm excited about the intro. Basically Malcolm is outlining the, the introduction to a book that would theoretically be called We Will Replace You.

That talks about how. Demographic collapse is playing out, but what isn't being discussed that much is, all right, well, who's gonna come out ruler of the world in the future. Well it seems

Malcolm Collins: it's sort of like a, a treatise on how the tech right and the traditional right, can work together in what comes next and work together to defeat the urban monoculture, which is uniquely, I think, important right now with Elon's sort of betrayal, I think, of the larger right wing movement.

Simone Collins: Right.

Malcolm Collins: Which everyone knew was coming. I don't see it as like a big thing. I mean, him and Trump were always eventually gonna have a falling out. I didn't expect him to go this hard, but that, that was always something that was going on.

Do

Simone Collins: either of these men practice things by half measures Malcolm? No, they don't. They,

Malcolm Collins: they, they go a hundred percent. Yeah. But, but you know, we live

Simone Collins: dramatically.

Malcolm Collins: We'll have an episode on, on this that will have gone live before this one. But I, but I will say just so our position on this, I, I am not happy that this happened.

And I think that that increases the importance of Simone and I in staying loyal to the mainstream Republican party and the, the new right tech, right alliance and, and, and understanding that. Elon's not the king of all this. You know, honestly, probably the king of all of this is Asma Gold, if you wanted to say, who's the real king of like this faction of voters and influences them the most.

And Elon has beefed with Asma Gold before as well. So he has Asma Gold called him out for the game cheating thing. Oh. And he got like banned on Twitter for a short period because of that. You know, which is. Not great. Because he was, he was being very gracious in the way he was doing it. He was like, I mean, just looking at this, it does not look good, is basically what Asal said.

And, and, you know, or you know, Nino, who's big now, I can't believe Nux. Inor got big outta nowhere. Cool. All right. I'll get started.

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