Affordability Versus Investment Debate

Electricity Canada CEO Francis Bradley joins thinkenergy to unpack the 2026 State of the Industry report, Forging Canada's Electricity Future. Why is public trust in utilities peaking in light of extreme weather? Why is a single word in the Fisheries Act halting major hydro projects? They dive into supply chain headaches, bureaucratic red tape, and how treating the power grid like core tax-funded infrastructure can make electricity bills more affordable for consumers.

Related links

• Electricity Canada: https://www.electricity.ca/

• Francis Bradley on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/francis-bradley-icd-d-ias-a-3617802a/

• Electricity Human Resources Canada: https://ehrc.ca/

• Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114

• Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en

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Transcript:

00:01 Trevor Freeman: Welcome to Think Energy, a podcast that dives into the fast-changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators, and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional, and up-and-coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback, or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at [email protected].

00:27 Trevor Freeman: Hi everyone, and welcome back. Here's something you've heard me say before: the energy transition isn't coming, it's here now. And that's showing up in a lot of different ways—from the significant increase in demand that we're seeing driven by AI data centers and electrification, to the ever-increasing adoption of distributed energy resources by everyday Canadians in their homes and businesses. Even utilities looking to non-wire solutions as a strategy to employ alongside the traditional poles and wires approach to meet this growing demand. That's all happening now.

01:03 Trevor Freeman: And that really underscores the message that the time for talking about how we will eventually build out our grid to handle the energy transition has turned into the time to build and deliver on that talk. But, as with most things, it's never just that easy. This is all happening against the backdrop of an energy industry that is, to say the least, facing some pretty significant turmoil. What sector isn't right now? There's global conflict, there's a need for bold new policy direction, changing technology—these are not insignificant factors.

01:38 Trevor Freeman: And so, to help us understand where we currently are at and where immediate action is necessary, I think it's time we check in with a two-time previous guest on this show: Francis Bradley. Francis is the President and CEO of Electricity Canada, the leading voice for the electricity industry in this country. We've had Francis on the show before in the past and it's great to have him back here today to chat about some of these issues.

02:04 Trevor Freeman: Every year, Electricity Canada releases a State of the Industry report that serves as kind of a pulse check on our sector. You'll hear shortly in my conversation with Francis that there is something to the naming of these reports. In 2023, the message was "Build It". In 2024, they used the title "Getting to Yes". But the 2026 report, which was just released, has a bit of a different title: it's called "Forging Canada's Electricity Future".

02:35 Trevor Freeman: Now, to forge something implies heat, pressure, a lot of hard work. And this report does exactly that. It dives into the regulatory system that we operate in, the gaps in our labor and supply chains, and this new geopolitical reality that's pushing Canada to prioritize our own domestic production. But it's not all warnings. There is a roadmap, so to speak, in the report that specifies 18 recommendations that Electricity Canada proposes be addressed in order to help our industry thrive. As the need to increase our capacity and meet these rising energy demands intensifies, getting projects moving, getting shovels in the ground is absolutely critical. So, it's really great to have Francis here today to chat through that and talk about what's in the report, and I'm sure it'll be a great discussion.

03:26 Trevor Freeman: Francis Bradley, welcome to the show—welcome back to the show.

03:29 Francis Bradley: Oh, delighted to be back. Good to see you.

03:32 Trevor Freeman: So Francis, it's great to have you back on the show. It's always a pleasure to catch up and get, you know, your perspective, your take on what's happening in the world of energy, and particularly the Canadian energy landscape. So, we chatted just under a year ago, and I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that was a pretty tumultuous time in the world of energy, at least here in Canada.

03:52 Trevor Freeman: So, just for context setting for our listeners as a reminder: we had just come out of both a provincial and federal election here in Ontario. Our various levels of governments were responding to actual tariffs and threats of additional tariffs. There was a lot of talk about national energy projects from pipelines to east-west electricity grids. So, with that as the backdrop, how has the last year been for you and Electricity Canada, being kind of the main association representing the electricity industry in Canada? Have we seen some of those big projects move forward? Is it all talk or have things actually happened in the last sort of 10, 12 months?

04:36 Francis Bradley: Yeah, I mean, this is a—this is a really good question and it's a great place to start our conversation. You're right, things have been pretty crazy this past year. But also, from the perspective of energy and electricity, there's also been some pretty significant developments as well, particularly I'd say the people who are responsible for the things that we care about in the federal government.

05:04 Francis Bradley: So we've, you know, we've got a Prime Minister that used to be Vice Chair at Brookfield; we've got a Minister of Energy that used to chair the board of Hydro One; the head of the civil service most recently was the President of Hydro Quebec. So, you know, among all of that massive change, we also saw now a team in Ottawa that actually understands our sector and that gets the challenges that we're talking about.

05:32 Francis Bradley: So, you know, have we seen significant projects moving forward? Well, I mean, part of the challenge, of course, is projects in this sector are very, very long-term. I mean, they take a long time. These are not, you know, kind of shovel-ready projects that are just sitting on the sidelines and immediately you get a go, you can move forward. These are generational investments. But what we have seen, I think, is some real movement by the federal government and a very significant change in terms of their approach.

06:05 Francis Bradley: Bill C-5, for example—the first piece of legislation that we saw moving through—that sent a real signal that the government was serious, as serious as you can be in a minority government situation. Short of changing a large number of laws, they essentially do a carve-out for those projects of national interest—or some people call them "PONIs," Projects of National Interest. So we saw addressing, trying to move that small set of projects more quickly through the process. We saw the establishment of the Major Projects Office as a kind of a concierge for these major projects. We saw the MOU with the province of Alberta also, I think, a sign that there is a real desire to see major projects move forward.

07:01 Francis Bradley: But the challenge here—and this is what I raised when I appeared before the parliamentary committee reviewing Bill C-5—is that's all well and good if you happen to be one of those PONIs. If you happen to be the proponent for one of these projects of national interest, that's terrific; you're able to move through this project more quickly. But you know, the reality is the vast majority of the projects that are going to make a difference for the electricity sector and ultimately for Canadian customers may not rise to that level of a Project of National Interest. And so, all of the concerns that we had previous to Bill C-5 really remain for the vast majority of projects that we're going to be facing.

07:44 Francis Bradley: So, yeah, have we seen movement? Yeah, I think we've seen pretty significant movement. We've seen all of the right signals, but as I said, the government can only go so far as a minority government. Now, that's today when we're recording this, but by the time this plays, we may not be in a minority government situation anymore. But that is the reality; it is difficult for the government to get legislation through as a minority, and I'm certainly pleased that one of the first priorities was addressing "how do we get projects built?" because that's something that we've been talking about for a long time.

08:24 Trevor Freeman: And do you see—you know, obviously Canada exists within the broader backdrop of global energy politics or the energy kind of situation? There's a lot going on there right now, of course, you know, conflict in energy-producing countries. Do you see us continuing to move forward on these? So, the last year was kind of a foundation setting, figuring out how to get major projects done, and now we're moving into hopefully implementation, or have we been knocked off course? Do you see something changing significantly in Canadian energy policy and politics as a result of what's happening globally?

09:03 Francis Bradley: Yeah, you know, again, a really good question, Trevor. Because certainly the short-term challenges that we've seen with now the war in the Middle East and the roiling of markets and the significant increase, I think if anything, it's going to prove to be an even greater impetus for us. I don't think it's going to slow us; it's probably going to get us to speed up. I think it certainly will with respect to our colleagues that are in the oil and gas space, but also for electricity.

09:37 Francis Bradley: I think it's going to increase the desire that people will have to see greater energy sovereignty in Canada. And so, a lot of the issues that we've been talking about with respect to building out, meeting the future demand, and getting things built were not directly addressing Canadian sovereignty, but they indirectly address Canadian sovereignty. And over the last year with the challenges with the Trump administration, suddenly questions around Canadian sovereignty are getting more traction. So yeah, I think what's happening in the world today—certainly the most recent past—is going to prove to be, I think, even more impetus for us to want to move and move expeditiously in this space.

10:24 Trevor Freeman: Yeah, I guess something that I think has become clear to folks outside of us who kind of are in the industry is just how tied our energy reality and energy policy is to what's happening globally. And to your point, kind of that global policy, global economics—it's all intertwined and probably people are paying attention to it more now than at least in recent memory.

10:48 Francis Bradley: Yeah, and the good news, at least with respect to electricity, is we are not tied to a world market for electricity and electricity pricing the way like the oil and gas and the price at the pump. If you're filling up your car—I don't fill up my car anymore, I drive electric. But I, you know, I've got family and colleagues that are filling up and I'm hearing, you know, already feeling pain at the pump, which is, you know, the reality of having an international world market.

11:21 Francis Bradley: Our electricity market thankfully doesn't get that kind of—of an impact as a result of those changes. However, what happens in the U.S. with respect to supply and reliability certainly affects us, and it's something that we're watching closely. You know, we've seen cancellations of offshore wind projects, for example, off the East Coast of the United States. You know, we've seen a step back from a number of different types of technologies in the U.S.. So, while international affairs are not necessarily making me as concerned directly with respect to electricity, the North American picture, though, is raising questions with respect to reliability.

11:58 Trevor Freeman: We always go to interesting places during these conversations, right, Francis?

12:02 Francis Bradley: We do, I know. And I kind of—you got my brain going here. Sometimes I like to go down a rabbit hole.

12:09 Trevor Freeman: Okay, so I think that's a good context setting. That's a good place to start to understand where we are, what's been kind of going on, who knows what's coming up. But I do want to spend the bulk of our conversation here talking about Electricity Canada's 2026 State of the Industry report, and the title of that report is "Forging Canada's Electricity Future".

12:31 Trevor Freeman: So, not to spend too much time on semantics, but in previous years, you've titled these reports "Build It," "Getting to Yes" was another example. This year you've chosen "Forging." Is there a play on words there? You know, we're moving into a more high-pressure, difficult phase of the energy transition? Is there anything that we should read into that title, or am I kind of just picking at straws here?

12:56 Francis Bradley: No, you're not. We've been very intentional in terms of what we've been titling our State of the Industry. And so, you know, we've seen an evolution in terms of the thematic approach that we've been taking to this report. And so, you know, when I moved into the role of CEO, we began producing sort of these annual snapshots of the sector. They're intended to kind of lay out what we see as the current state of the electricity sector in Canada and our prescriptions for, you know, what should be done to be able to address our challenges.

13:30 Francis Bradley: And you know, if I look back over the last several years—and you noted some of the thematic approaches we've had in the past—2019 we started with, you know, it was all about "Resilience". 2020 it was about "Transformation". 2021 it was "Renewal". 2022 everybody was talking about net zero, so our theme back then was "Accelerating to Net Zero". 2023, "Build It," you noted that. 2024 was "Getting to Yes," and you noted that one as well. That was an interesting report because it really did focus on—it seemed to have a culture of "no" when it comes to "can we get stuff done?" and it attempted to address that.

14:14 Francis Bradley: 2025, last year's report, you know, as you noted, we were in an interesting place this time last year. You know, we'd just come out of an election. So at the beginning of last year, we put out our annual State of the Industry and it was focused on—we called it "Electricity is Essential" and it really was kind of our election platform edition for electricity.

14:38 Francis Bradley: And yeah, here we are in 2026, so "Forging Canada's Electricity Future." And now, you know, we were very conscious; we wanted to use that term "forging". And forging is, as we note in the report at the very beginning, it means to create something strong and something lasting. So, for example, one forges steel, but you just bake a pie. So, like, we're talking about what is going to be long-lasting and sustainable in terms of our build-out for the future.

15:11 Francis Bradley: So, it isn't necessarily about higher pressure, but it's that it's time to build. It's time to build now, but it's time to build stuff that is going to be enduring, especially given the moment we're in. And that moment includes—well, some things that we haven't seen for a while: federal-provincial-territorial consensus on the need to address long-term electricity needs.

15:37 Francis Bradley: You know, as I mentioned a little bit earlier, we've got people in the key offices in Ottawa, for example, that actually understand the electricity sector, and a federal government that has said that they're going to be introducing very soon—by the time this airs, it's probably already out there—a federal strategy with respect to electricity, something that we've been asking for for a while. So, it isn't necessarily about pressure; it's more about building something that is enduring and something that will last and something that is sustainable given the sort of the time and place that we find ourselves in.

16:15 Trevor Freeman: And in light of that, like looking at the fact that we are hopefully moving into this period of building, of growing, you know, something that jumps out from the report is trust in electricity companies. So, you note that trust is at an all-time high in the players in the sector, even as a majority of Canadians are feeling, you know, to put it in quotes, "financially paralyzed"—and that's from a 2025 RBC study. Trust isn't usually a word that we use for large institutions, large organizations, which a lot of our energy companies are. Why do you think that Canadians are feeling an all-time high in trust in their utilities right now, maybe more so than other parts of the sector? And how do we protect that trust, and I'm thinking especially as we move into periods of growth, periods of change in the industry? How do we protect that?

17:08 Francis Bradley: Yeah, trust is—it's an interesting concept, particularly with sort of institutions when we're approaching it from that perspective. So, you know, what we're talking about here in the report is a specific measure on favorability, and the favorability towards electricity companies specifically. And so, this comes from the polling work that we do, the annual polling that we undertake on behalf of the sector.

17:39 Francis Bradley: Now, polling is interesting; public opinion research is interesting. Almost 40 years ago, when I was hired into this sector, I was hired at the Canadian Electrical Association at the time specifically because of the work that I'd previously and quite recently been doing in public opinion research in the oil and gas sector. So, you know, when we've got questions about what our polling is, I bring both some historical perspectives and I perhaps bring some biases to these conversations.

18:13 Francis Bradley: So, what is trust and why are we suddenly seeing this upswing in favorability? So, my take on it is that it's all about reliability. My take is that favorability is being driven, I think, partially by extreme weather of all things. Because, you know, the last time we saw favorability ratings this high was following the ice storm in Eastern Canada in 1998.

18:41 Francis Bradley: So, customers are seeing electricity companies now, today, keeping the lights on, restoring power following extreme weather events. And they're being told by the media, and they see it and read it everywhere, that weather events are becoming more frequent, they're becoming more extreme, and yet the companies are maintaining reliability. And that is something I think the customer is feeling.

19:10 Francis Bradley: So, like, if you think of sort of a hierarchy of needs from a customer's perspective of what they need from an electricity company—and while, you know, it's going to differ from person to person in terms of what the ordering is going to be—I can guarantee that the top three will be environmental impact, cost, and reliability. And of those three, that last one is actually the first one: reliability. For the customer, they want all of the different attributes that you get from electricity, but the one thing that is non-negotiable is reliability; the lights need to stay on.

19:48 Francis Bradley: And you know, I approach this based upon the work that I've done, as I said, historically. I recall doing focus groups in the spring of 1998 following the ice storm, when we saw the last really major surge in favorability. And I was asking customers about their views, and you know, at the time, as I said, you've got people that are suddenly more favorable towards the sector.

20:13 Francis Bradley: And what I was getting in the focus groups, in the conversations, was people had seen a lot of images on television news and on the cover of newspapers and magazines back when people actually had hard copies of newspapers and magazines. Of images of crews doing heroic things—you know, like hanging off of helicopters, working on lines, and so on. And so, you know, I really do think there is a direct relation between people's favorability of the sector and their perception that given that reliability is so critically important, we as a sector seem to be doing really good stuff. And, you know, they continue to see images on the net as opposed to necessarily in hard copy newspapers of the sector doing incredibly, you know, difficult and challenging things to make sure that the lights stay on for customers.

21:12 Francis Bradley: But of course, it isn't all about simply favorability, and as I said, it's reliability, it's environment, and its cost. And the biggest challenge outside of that, I think over the long term, is going to be the whole question around affordability and cost to the customer. So, you know, you're asking what's driving it, I think it's reliability, but what's the major challenge going forward? I think it's going to be all about affordability for the customer.

21:40 Trevor Freeman: Yeah, it's this interesting, almost ironic feature of extreme weather, of these major outage events—and you know, I'm speaking from Ottawa, we've had our share in the last number of years, let me tell you—that it does force the customers to think more about what it takes to keep the lights on. And if everything's running smoothly and there's no bumps in the road at all, it almost gets forgotten a little bit. But it takes those big events to sort of bring that back to the forefront and there's inconvenience, of course, in the outage, but it also helps people to understand, yeah, this is what is required for this, you know, a grid that is complex and difficult to keep up and running.

22:24 Trevor Freeman: So, I kind of hear what you're saying, affordability you've highlighted a couple times there in the last little bit, and that's kind of where I want to go next. That continues to be top of mind for customers, and you've highlighted it, we hear that from our customers, we see that in the kind of conversations that we're having with our customers. Electricity Canada runs a national customer survey; back in 2024, 84% of respondents to your survey said that an increase in my electricity bill would have a major impact on my finances. So, you know, customers are saying, we'll feel it if electricity bills go up.

23:02 Trevor Freeman: And there's a tension in that because for the foreseeable future, affordability and the need to invest in the grid to build, to grow—we talk about that a lot on the show about how we kind of need to allow for more capacity, accept more distributed energy resources—those two things are going to be in tension with each other. How can utilities manage that, work with other stakeholders—for example, like various levels of government—how do we work together to ensure that the need to expand and invest in the grid doesn't impact rates too dramatically and impact affordability that customers say is so important?

23:44 Francis Bradley: Yeah, and that's the—that's the, you know, that's I think probably the most fundamental challenge that the sector is going to face in the years ahead, the whole challenge around affordability. But sort of I come at this in a bit of a different way, and that is not, you know, not the question of what the customer is paying but what the customer should be paying versus the taxpayer, right?

24:14 Francis Bradley: And so, the question I have is, you know, shouldn't we be looking at treating electricity as part of our core infrastructure? Right? And you know, we've actually started to have conversations around this with respect to our, you know, our defense spending targets. We're going to go from 2 to 3.5%, but that includes, you know, sort of all the supporting infrastructure for defense. Well, geez, shouldn't that actually include, you know, the defense infrastructure, the defense critical electricity infrastructure?

24:49 Francis Bradley: So, you know, if we're thinking about infrastructure and electricity being part of the core infrastructure, as we do with roads or ports or public transit, for example—core infrastructure that is required to enable the economic prosperity of the country—then we shouldn't be looking at relying solely on the kilowatt-hours paid by customers. Because this isn't simply, you know, delivering electricity to a customer; it is ensuring that we have the infrastructure that the economy as a whole needs.

25:27 Francis Bradley: So, you know, just like transit users today, when they buy their transit pass, are not paying 100% of the cost because we recognize that that's actually part of core infrastructure for a country and it needs tax-based funding. So, you know, we need to be looking at more creative ways to be able to address what that funding gap is going to be.

25:54 Francis Bradley: You know, we've got existing tools; we've got the clean technology and clean electricity investment tax credits, we've got the Canada Infrastructure Bank, we've got indigenous loan guarantees—there's a number of other programs that the federal government has in place. But we're going to need to do a lot more if we're going to actually look at kind of growing the Canadian economy and bringing in the investments of basically $2 trillion over the next 25 years. All of that $2 trillion can't go on the rate base, right? But by the same token, when you look at every other piece of core infrastructure that we've got, it is paid for by a mix of user fees and tax base because this is what one does as a nation—one supports the core infrastructure that we've got. So, I think that's how we're going to have to address this in the future. It is kind of having a clear understanding of what one does as a country for our infrastructure, and so it should be paid for as infrastructure as opposed to consumption of electricity by consumers.

27:01 Trevor Freeman: Now, in Canada—like a lot of other jurisdictions—energy is a provincial jurisdiction. So, the kind of change and change in thinking that you're talking about, it's not just one conversation you need to have with the federal government across the country; you're talking about multiple different stakeholders and players and trying to move that conversation. How do you go about that? And I know you're not starting from scratch; this is a conversation you've been having for a while. What does that change look like in a country like Canada where we've got so many different jurisdictions?

27:37 Francis Bradley: Yeah, well, you know, we've done this before. And we've done this with other sectors. No, I mean we have, right? You quite rightly point out that electricity is a provincial responsibility according to the Canadian Constitution. But guess what? So is health. So is public—I mentioned public transit. You know, when we build the next LRT line, it's not going to be all paid for by transit users in Ontario. Some of it is going to be paid for by the provincial government and some of it is going to be paid for by the federal government. You're not seeing any major transit infrastructure in this country—and that is not a federal responsibility—not being built today without some federal contribution.

28:23 Francis Bradley: So, we're not starting from zero from a conceptual standpoint; we do this with many other sectors, but it is those sectors that we know are the kind of the core infrastructure that we require as a country, you know, from health care to public transit to roads and so on. And the conversations are not, you know, not just starting tomorrow, right? These are conversations that have been going on for quite some time.

28:50 Francis Bradley: But yeah, you know, it's interesting when talking to folks that don't spend a lot of time in this space, they ask, like you did, they ask the question, "Wait a second, this is provincial responsibility, isn't it going to be just like an absolute bear to try and have this conversation?" Yeah, not so much. It's like, this is—we've had this conversation on a whole pile of other files where we recognized that we needed a more holistic approach and a national approach that brings together the federal government, the provincial government, the regional municipal governments, and the local community.

29:26 Trevor Freeman: Great. So, pulling on that same thread, regulatory constraints—we all like to talk about regulatory constraints, it's a reality in our industry. The report talks about this being a system that chooses delays. So, tell me a little bit about that and about some of the specific challenges that utilities are hitting right now when they're trying to get projects moving, trying to get things off the ground, and what do you recommend, what does Electricity Canada recommend to streamline that process and get things moving?

30:00 Francis Bradley: Right. So, you know, and we talked earlier about some of the themes of the previous reports—one of them was thematically called "Getting to Yes". Because yeah, I mean, at least our view is by and large the approval regimes that we've got for projects in this country are biased towards figuring out how to turn down projects. You know, what are all of the ways that one can say no, as opposed to like, how do we actually get to yes, and how do we use these—and that isn't to say that it should automatically be a yes or automatically be a no. It should be a clear process that isn't biased one way or the other.

30:41 Francis Bradley: And also, you know, the way we've kind of built this system over the years, we've got multiple levels of government—we were chatting about that just a moment ago with respect to funding—from municipal to regional to provincial and territorial and federal government. And on any project, there's requirement, there's regulations, and there's requirement for approvals and need for coordination, and so inevitably right off the bat, it's going to result in delays. Delays, as I always like to point out to people, delays mean costs—additional costs, additional costs are borne by the customer. So, you know, if we can address this, it also helps us to address the question that we were talking about earlier about affordability.

31:30 Francis Bradley: Right? Like, how long does it take to get a major project built? Depending upon the kind of project that you're talking about, it can be decades or more. So, you know, to what degree can we simplify this? We've got duplication—federal and provincial processes. As well as, in addition to that duplication and different layers, we've got unnecessary regulatory actions that crop up, and the example that I often use—because it's a real head-scratcher for me—is a couple of years ago, the federal government changed the Fisheries Act.

32:07 Francis Bradley: And the Fisheries Act now protects fish as opposed to protecting fisheries. And that sounds like a fairly simple esoteric issue, but it is massively now complicating the licensing and the relicensing even of existing facilities when their licensing comes up. So, by—it wasn't intentional to make it that much more complicated, but it is almost impossible right now to license a hydro facility. There are very few hydro facilities that are currently compliant with this new Fisheries Act that protects individual fish as opposed to fish populations. I don't know, maybe part of the problem is the word fish is both singular and plural, but that just gives you a little more complication for when lawyers get involved in this.

32:59 Francis Bradley: So, listen, what do we need, right? For years, we've had, in four or five years in a row, either in the federal budget or in the fall economic statements or in other pronouncements by the government of Canada, a promise to bring in a "one project, one approval" regime, which sounds great, but we haven't gotten there yet. And it's something that keeps getting promised year after year after year. We need to get to that one project, one approval regime.

33:34 Francis Bradley: And then the other thing is the federal government has also now committed—they introduced it in Bill C-5 for the projects of national interest—a two-year federal approval timeline for major projects. Well, we actually need that for all projects, not just those "PONIs," not just those projects of national interest. We should have a federal timeline on all projects. Again, which isn't to say that every project gets approved within two years, but like, if it's going to get a thumbs up or a thumbs down, you need to know in a reasonable amount of time so that you can figure out what the alternative will be if it's a thumbs down.

34:16 Francis Bradley: So, you know, I think it's just as reasonable to say we need to know if we're getting approval, but we also need to know if we're not getting approved so that alternatives—and that needs to be done in a timely manner. And so the federal government has permitted, has committed to like this two-year timeline for projects of national interest; we'd like to see that across the board—federal government, provincial governments as well—for all projects. We've got the Major Projects Office that's been set up; I'm certain that already there's lessons that are being learned from the Major Projects Office. Well, let's draw those lessons and apply them to all projects, not projects of national interest.

35:00 Francis Bradley: Red tape reduction—we've heard of desires to ensure that we're looking at opportunities—well, that should be a continuous and ongoing process. And then finally, duplication between the federal government and the provinces—we need to eliminate that duplication. You know, for example, even on things as simple as environmental assessments—well, pick one, right? Let's get an agreement between both levels of government that one project, one review for that project will be sufficient. And so the feds can recognize the provincial process, the provincial can recognize the federal—one or the other as opposed to having multiple levels of government essentially doing the same work over and over again. And again, as I said earlier, as you well know, Trevor, these additional costs land in one place and one place only right now, and that's on the ratepayer, that's on the customer.

35:56 Trevor Freeman: And it's that double cost of the additional time and effort necessary as well as delaying whatever kind of economic activity the customer might be waiting for, which kind of ties into my next question here of we're seeing more and more—and this has always been the case but maybe it's just a little bit more on the forefront now—the importance of energy for economic development, for attracting investment and business. And that's true in our service territory absolutely as well as others. So, supply chain challenges have cropped up in the last little while and are getting into the mix and causing some of those delays. In order to move forward, what can the federal government do to bolster supply chains? Is it bringing more things domestically? Are there other tools that they have at their disposal? How do we go about addressing the supply chain challenge?

36:52 Francis Bradley: Yeah, and this is a real issue—as you know from your perch at Hydro Ottawa—it's a challenge for even a company such as yours and it's right across the sector. The delays and the time that it takes to get into the queue to get particularly for large pieces of equipment, but even for some of the smaller stuff, is simply becoming more and more challenging. We thought it was a COVID-19 blip, but it wasn't, right? I mean, it is continuing, it is persisting six years later; the supply chains remain as challenged as they were, probably even more so. I mean, a couple of years ago we saw a ship get stuck sideways in the Suez Canal and it affected supply chains for every sector right across the globe.

37:46 Francis Bradley: So yeah, you know, we need to be addressing this. So what we're proposing is we look at the establishment of what we're calling a Canadian Electricity Supply Chain Roadmap. This, done in partnership with the federal government, electricity companies, suppliers, and so on—everybody that's got a stake in this—to take a more systematic and collaborative and cooperative approach to addressing supply chains, and come together to identify those opportunities to do some of the things that you mentioned. You know, what about domestic production on some of these things? What about domestic production in those areas where we've got the potential for exports as well? So that would be potentially not only an ability to address a supply chain issue, but also to look at economic opportunities for Canadian businesses.

38:43 Francis Bradley: And can we look at leveraging some of the existing tools that we've got and repurpose them so that they are focused on addressing what would be identified as needing to be in that supply chain roadmap? Let's leverage tools such as tax credits, Business Development Canada, Export Development Canada, the Canada Growth Fund. So, you know, it'd be interesting if there were other venues and other opportunities, but we have existing tools; we're just not, I think, focusing them directly and specifically with respect to the supply chain requirements for the electricity sector and we should be looking at doing that. And you know, the challenges—I've spent time with the steel producers, for example—it is fascinating to try and get a sense of what those challenges are for the partners that we've got, whether it's steel or aluminum or finished products or transformers; it is endlessly complex, evolving, and so you know, we really do think developing some kind of a clear roadmap with all of the stakeholders would benefit the sector as a whole.

39:56 Trevor Freeman: Yeah, I mean certainly those challenges are ubiquitous across multiple sectors, and I think the one thing that we do find is when we bring up the challenges we're having with our customers or potential customers, they all get it, it's not a surprise. They don't sit there kind of surprised to hear that oh, it's going to take us this much time to bring in that transformer because they're going through some of those same challenges and I think the need is cross-cutting to address it. Another input, of course, into any sector and certainly the electricity industry is just the human capital required—the skilled labor required on the design side, on the construction side. Your report recommends establishing a Federal Industry Workforce Advisory Council. What would the priority be for that council and how do you help the utility industry compete against other industries that are also out there kind of participating in this war on talent trying to get the best and brightest into their sectors?

41:03 Francis Bradley: Yeah, no, I mean it is definitely a challenge. It's something that we've been addressing for, geez, probably two decades now at the association. We helped establish Electricity Human Resources Canada back in the day; it was spun off from some of our activities we'd done previously. So, you know, this is an area that we've been particularly concerned about in the sector for, well, as I say, you know, 20 years, it's been a generation that we've seen this challenge coming and we know it's on its way.

41:38 Francis Bradley: We are seeing, I think, some very good work in this space—I did mention Electricity Human Resources Canada; they do some terrific work, they are absolutely a critical stakeholder, increasingly a thought leader in this space. But you know, as you note, we have a very specific ask in our State of the Industry and that is getting the federal government to pull together a senior-level advisory committee with representatives from industry associations, from unions, from training providers, from the sector as a whole, to discuss these emerging labor market issues, to review the forecasts.

42:18 Francis Bradley: They need to address strategies, and so the mandate needs to be very specific: ongoing review, monitoring, and improvement of our workforce mechanisms to ensure that they remain adaptive and responsive to labor market realities. And so, this is not something that the sector and the electricity companies themselves control; this is something that requires the collaboration and participation of governments with respect to the policies that they bring forward, with unions, and with the training providers.

42:55 Trevor Freeman: Yeah, and as we look at sort of that next generation—you talk about this being a generational challenge—it's one thing to attract the skilled workers of today, it's another to bring up and build those skill sets. We talk about that a lot on the show about how we kind of need to build those skill sets. So, a bit of a platform for you here: why should someone consider that career in the electricity industry? What's the hook? What's the thing that you would convince them to come? I kind of know what my pitch is, but I'm curious to hear what yours is.

43:29 Francis Bradley: All right. Well, listen, I mean, like, sort of on the first piece, you know, I think this is where the adaptive and responsive comes into play. That advisory council I talked about I think would be able to recommend how we adjust and how we adapt our programs to further, you know, promote the sector. But why would I recommend somebody in this sector, and who would I begin with? Absolutely.

43:56 Francis Bradley: I mean, first off, I mean, this is a sector where we're going to see massive growth. We know that it is coming; we know that we're going to see a doubling of demand out to 2050. And so, with that massive growth, the prospects for skilled trades, the prospects for anybody in this sector is very bright.

44:21 Francis Bradley: And you know, one of the other things as well that I'd like to point out is we hear a lot of talk about how AI is going to massively change the workforce of the future. But when we're talking about skilled trades, you know, AI can do a lot of things, but ChatGPT is never going to be able to climb a pole, swing a hammer, or install an insulator. So, you know, not only is this a sector where the growth is going to be very significant over the next 25 years, it's also one where we know we actually need people to do these things.

44:54 Francis Bradley: And these are, you know, for a certain type of person, this is really cool and interesting stuff. So, you know, whether it is in the skilled trades or people in the technologies, this is a sector that has some really interesting, fascinating career choices and they're ones that, you know, the ChatGPT is not going to be taking away from you.

45:18 Trevor Freeman: Yeah, and it is this—the sector is evolving, it's innovating, it's changing, but to your point, we still need that traditional infrastructure. We need that growth, there will be more poles and wires, there will be cooler technology to work on, but we still need folks to install them. And something that I tell people that are interested—you know, a lot of younger folks coming up are really passionate about the environment, climate change—this is a great sector for that. This is a great spot to focus on that; the electricity industry is the, you know, tip of the spear when it comes to addressing climate change—electricity is the solution.

46:01 Francis Bradley: And it will continue to be so well into the future. Yeah, no, absolutely couldn't agree more.

46:07 Trevor Freeman: So, pivoting then to climate change, and we're seeing we've talked here a couple times about the increase in severe weather events, you know, wildfires in parts of the country. Utilities are facing this challenge of not only meeting growing demand but also meeting it in a harsher environment—I think there's no better way to say it—our grid needs to be more resilient and people are relying on it even more. What are some of the recommendations that you've identified on how utilities adapt to this changing world and become more resilient?

46:46 Francis Bradley: Yeah, well, you know, you're right, the conditions, the extreme weather that we're facing is not something that's going to go away. I find it interesting that I think every six months we add something new to the lexicon to try and just describe how crazy the weather has gotten—you know, like atmospheric rivers and heat domes and...

47:09 Trevor Freeman: Derecho!

47:11 Francis Bradley: Yeah, right, like when did we—I never heard of a derecho until it ripped through, I don't know, how many thousands of poles it tore up through Ottawa. Exactly. So, you know, this stuff is real and it's evolving.

47:25 Francis Bradley: And so, yeah, what are we proposing? We've kind of got three big asks in this area. The first one is we need to do a review of those federal and provincial legal frameworks. Do we have the appropriate protections related to industry-caused ignitions as we say? So, you know, if inadvertent but there is a spark from infrastructure that causes, for example, a fire, you know, do we actually have legal frameworks that can address this in a way that doesn't simply go in and bankrupt a company as happened in California? So we're supporting work in this space.

48:06 Francis Bradley: Second, we want to establish formal coordination mechanisms between our sector and—it may sound a little esoteric for us sitting here in downtown Ottawa—but Parks Canada, to address vegetation management on federal lands. There is a lot of federal land particularly, for example, in the Rockies, but not exclusively; there's lots of other parts of this country where there's vast swaths of land that is owned by Parks Canada that our infrastructure transits through, and so we need better coordination mechanisms. And we saw that frankly with respect to the fire in Jasper a couple of years ago that we could and need to do a lot better in terms of our coordination.

48:54 Francis Bradley: And then finally, we're suggesting looking at a resiliency tax credit or some kind of a targeted funding program to support weather hardening of electricity infrastructure, to protect the system from growing exposure to extreme weather. To cover off all of those things, whether it's wildfires or ice storms or windstorms or floods or tornadoes. You know, again, it kind of comes back to that concept of this is core infrastructure; there are some things that actually should be tax-supported, and weather hardening of our core infrastructure is something that we should be thinking about. Is that should be on the bills of customers, or is that something that as a country we need to address?

49:43 Trevor Freeman: Great. So Francis, as we wrap up our conversation here—you know, if we go to the end of your State of the Industry report, you've got 18 recommendations. We're not going to go through each one individually. Is there one that rises above the rest, or let me put this a different way: if you could sum up or distill this kind of entire report into a key takeaway or a key action item, what would that be? How do you kind of wrap all this up in a bow, which I know is a difficult thing to do for such a comprehensive report as this?

50:23 Francis Bradley: Right. So, you're actually asking two questions there: is there one I want to point out or and what's the wrap-up? I mean, if there was one thing of those 18 that I'd say, "Please in the next 12 months, for goodness' sake, at least do this one thing," it would be reforming the Fisheries Act, and I mentioned that earlier. Because right now, it focuses on individual fish as opposed to the impact on fish populations. So, that's one if I wanted one that I think should be fairly easy to address and to move forward with, it would be that one, which I think was number two on the list.

51:03 Francis Bradley: But you know, of all of the 18, they're all about "can we get our stuff built?" and "can we get it done in a timely manner because the customer is counting on us?" So, you know, if one of those encapsulates that, I would say it's probably the first one, which, though talks, specifically to this two-year federal approval timeline. Thematically, what it's all about is we have to move and we have to move quickly, but we have to do it in a collaborative manner.

51:35 Francis Bradley: But you know, in the end here, what we're talking about is demand is going to double in the next 25 years. We need to invest $2 trillion. So let's do this in a manner that is sustainable and enduring, so not piecemeal, not piece by piece. So that kind of brings me back full circle to the very beginning of this report: "Forging Canada's Electricity Future." Forging is to create something strong and lasting through effort. And so I think thematically it's "let's build sustainably and in an enduring manner and not piecemeal". So, let's forge.

52:13 Trevor Freeman: I had planned on wrapping this up with inviting you back on the show a year from now to kind of talk about where we go, but you've recently announced that you're retiring soon—the next sort of few months are going to be wrapping up your time at Electricity Canada. So first of all, congratulations on that.

52:32 Francis Bradley: Thank you.

52:33 Trevor Freeman: The invitation stands, so you're welcome to come back out of retirement to come on the show and check in with where we are, and so the invitation will remain open.

52:43 Francis Bradley: Well, and as you know, I do a podcast, and I may continue to do my podcast on the future of electricity beyond that. Remains to be seen.

52:54 Trevor Freeman: That's great. Well, I hope that on your show, on this show, we'll be able to talk through how some of these things that we're discussing now, how they've been implemented, how they've actually moved forward and we're able to see some results in that. Francis, thanks so much for coming on the show. Always appreciate your insight and appreciate you being here and looking forward to chatting again soon.

53:18 Francis Bradley: Awesome, always great to chat. Thanks for the invitation.

53:21 Trevor Freeman: Take care.

53:26 Trevor Freeman: Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the Think Energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and it would be great if you could leave us a review—it really helps us to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments, or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at [email protected].