And if it is true, then there's no defense anyway. You know, if it's true, there's no defense. And if it's not true, there's really no defense. Defensiveness really doesn't have any place in my understanding of what I've gleaned from therapy. If you say, oh, you're a liar, you're a cheater, you have a gambling problem. None of those things are true. So who cares? I'm not going to argue with you about that. But if you say something that is true, let me think you smoke too much pot, or you drink too much. I'd be like, yeah, those are things are true. You're right. I also no defense. You know what I mean? I don't think there's any room for defensiveness, because you don't have to argue with anyone about anything. I used to be so defensive. I used to be like, oh my God, I had to be right. I had to win arguments. And I just learned over time and through reading so many books about how useless defensiveness is. It's kind of like jealousy. There's no room for it. There's no space for it because it's so unproductive and it builds. You get envious and that envy, if you don't have a real healthy understanding of what envy means and where it's coming from, it can just build and be really destructive and become a big kind of blockade for you. And the same goes for defensiveness. If you're running around arguing all the time, you know what I mean? That kind of becomes bigger than you. And then who are you? So I don't want to use things that aren't advancing my agenda. And my agenda is just to be better and better at being a human. Yeah. Well,

and I think envy for women is sort of the linchpin of so much of our women on women hate and the way that we weaponize it against each other, specifically in this, who does she think she is? Why her and not me? How does she think she deserves that? I don't think this is conscious for what it's worth, but I think this is the cycle of how is she getting away with that? I need to put her in her place. She's too big for her britches and so on and so forth. Right. And if we could become more conscious of it, that other women potentially are showing us what we want, or our reflections of something that we would like to be able to do in an unrestricted way,

we might engage

and less take down of each other. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, you got

that in your book on our best behavior a lot. You talked about envy, one of the main, you know, the seven sins. And I think that's true. It's like, first of all, don't beat yourself up for being envious of another person. It's okay. It's okay. We're human beings. We have dark thoughts. We have human thoughts. Envy is natural. But to act on envy is a whole different endeavor. To act and, you know, and prohibit other people because you don't want them to succeed or act in a way that is going to make somebody else, you know, flounder is not, that's not acceptable. But all the thoughts are okay. You can have negative thoughts. You can have dark thoughts. You can think, oh, fuck, I can't live. I'd rather get euthanized than live through this administration. I'm not going to euthanize myself, mostly because you can't. It's almost impossible to do. But you know what I mean? They're just thoughts. They're not actions. When a thought becomes an action is when you have to really go, okay, what am I doing here?

Yeah, exactly. And this is why I think your relationship to your own darkness, which is a huge part of your brand, and you're very comfortable with your own shadow and your humanity, I think is a powerful lesson for all of us because we're all full of it. You know, it's just

part of it. Yeah, I think that's right. We all are. It's very true. We have to give ourselves a lot more grace than we give ourselves. For so many times in my life, I thought I was a bad person, you know, because I was having jealous thoughts or I was having competitive thoughts or someone else was exceeding beyond my success, someone I helped or all this nonsense. And I realized it's okay. You can feel that way and then be irresponsible about examining those thoughts and what they actually mean, because they can be really useful also. And they can be turned into something much more positive than how they started. Yeah. Well, and I think so much of

your work, whether you're conscious of this or not, is making your quote unquote badness or naughtiness the thing rather than projecting it onto other people. And it's a great lesson. I think it's very healthy. Do you, are you an Enneagram eight? You have to be an Enneagram eight. Do you know your Enneagram? Yeah, I believe I am

an eight. Yeah. You're an eight. You're an eight. I don't want to be like you're an eight, but you're an eight. Oh, that's so funny. Eight is the one who gets involved in other people's, the fixer, right? Well? Fixer is a

two and eights and twos are very related, but eight is like the challenger. Eights really come alive in conflict or when they meet some sort of resistance.

And there

aren't maybe that many women who are powerful eights. But the thing that I love about eights too, is that they will fiercely defend and protect, but really that's what they want for themselves. Does that resonate for you? All you want is someone to like defend and protect you. Completely. I'm like, where am

I in my life? I want someone, you know, to take care of me the way that I take care of people. I don't really accept help from anybody. So it's kind of like a fruitless endeavor, you know,

what number are you? I'm a six. And each Enneagram number has a vice. So the vice of an eight is lust, which can be lust for all of life. You just want it. One and all. And sixes are run by fear, which isn't that fun. Oh, yeah. Sorry about that. Yeah. We're the map makers and we think context is really important and we can understand this perspective and this perspective. And it's a little exhausting, I have to say, to be a six. Sixes, I think, are the most common.

Yeah. Yeah. My friend is a six and I know what you mean. It's very

fear-based. Yes. Fear-based. And we see it all hypervigilant. But eights are, and you would wing seven, is like the joyful, this should just be fun. Let's just have fun. So yeah, you're an eight who wing seven. You need to get into Enneagram. We're going to talk about this

after. I just read a new book about Enneagrams. Did you interview him for it? I haven't interviewed him and I haven't read it yet. Have you read it? No, no, but he told me about it. So yeah, we got to get it. It's a whole book about them. They have a new Enneagram system. He's got to read the wheel, literally the wheel he reinvented. So yeah, he was just waiting to reinvent the Enneagram. I

think I looked at it and it's like a Norton reference guide for practitioners. And I was like, oh man, I don't know if I have the mental capacity to break this down, but I'll try.

Who has the mental capacity to break it down? It's you. Between us, it's generally you. I don't know.

You share my love of David Hawkins. Do you know, this is so nerdy, but you might like it. The work of Ian McGilchrist is a neuroscientist. He wrote, he's the more popular one as the master and the emissary. And it has to do with comics. And I think this is why you'd find it interesting. But it's this idea of right brain, left brain, and that the right brain, the right hemisphere holds all the context. And then the left hemisphere holds all the facts and details. And when you knock out the right hemisphere, the left hemisphere lies, fabulates. And his argument is that we're becoming a left brain focused society.

But

that he talks about poets, creators, comics is having almost like an overextended right hemisphere, which is the ability to hold the whole and see the entire context. And then that's where creative genius comes from. Because comics, isn't that interesting, though, you hold the whole, and then you use language as metaphor and story to explain this bigger paradigm. But it's also like comics, he thinks are more susceptible to depression. Yes,

yes, that's true for sure. I don't suffer from depression, I don't think, not that I'm aware of, but comics in general definitely are a more depressed creative. Yeah,

I'm happy for you that you seem to have skirted it. Maybe it's because you ski so much. I can't believe we haven't talked about skiing. I

know, I know. Do you want to come film the ski video with me? We've got a cat. We've got 20 women, dogs, and we are filming. I rented a whole crew, drones, everything, 20 women in bathing suits skiing down with our dogs behind us. Well, can I bring my three-legged cat? Yeah. I mean, I have a feeling she doesn't love the snow, but I mean, he doesn't love the snow anyway thank

you well we are going to ski together your love and devotion to skiing is really makes my heart soft this season yet yes I went snowcat skiing in Colorado a couple weeks ago how was that it was amazing it was a hard way to start the ski season at 12,000 feet, but it was really fun. And it's with this company 11 and I was doing it, writing it for a story and we'll go back there someday. And you know what? Do you find this? My husband doesn't believe me, but there were some men on the trip and they were very sweet, but do you find that men get very threatened by you on skis? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've seen that before. Isn't it interesting?

I know you're a decent skier and they're like, what is she doing? When they don't know what their role is because they don't have to help you, then they're kind of, it's the same story with men all the time. It's like men dating super successful women when they realize what you need is not what they have to offer. It's like, I don't need you to buy me gifts. I don't need you to buy me jewelry. What I need is someone who understands me, who sees me and who is kind and sweet. And it's funny, it's kind of analogous to skiing. Cause as soon as a guy sees that you can ski well, they're either super turned on or they're like, nevermind. They're going to show off for you. Yes. It's the only place that I've ever had that sort of engagement

with a guy where it's the same, where they're either so psyched or it's like this subtle threatening one up, upmanship, you know, and you write about it a little bit with a boyfriend where he dragged you into a career boss. But honestly, I'm like, you're not a good skier. You, this is so out of your own bounds. Stop. I will destroy you, but stop.

Well, you're a really good skier so yes but you're a good skier I've seen you ski it's nice to have that advantage over man it surely is it's really fun when people you know what's really funny is when people are like oh yeah I ski I ski I'm like no no don't say you ski unless you ski just because you went on a couple ski trips doesn't mean you know how to ski Just because you've been skiing doesn't mean you ski. Like when we ski, you and I, we're going to be on the same page and we understand what that means.

Yeah. No, I can't wait. And let's find Donna. That was awesome. That story really made me laugh. Donna tomahawking down the ski hall. You tell us that story very briefly.