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Renowned trade historian Douglas Irwin joins Jack to compare the ongoing shifts in American trade policy to Smoot-Hawley tariff during the Great Depression and the McKinley-era tariffs of the late 19th century of which President Trump speaks so fondly. Irwin, the John French Professor of Economics at Dartmouth College, and author of “Clashing over Commerce” and “Trade Policy Disaster” among other titles, notes that most economic historians agree that the Smoot-Hawley tariff was not the primary cause of the Great Depression. Rather, while it probably exacerbated the global economic slowdown, trade barriers in a narrow sense served their respective countries' interest in limiting gold outflows. Professor Irwin argues that current tariffs (2% to ~15%) are a greater shock than Smoot-Hawley (38% to 42%), because of the higher rate of change and because U.S. trade as a percentage of GDP is higher now than it was in the 1930s. Jack lobs pro-protectionist arguments that Irwin strongly rejects. The two reflect on balance of payments, with Irwin noting that large capital inflows into the United States are a major cause of the large and persistent U.S. trade deficit. Recorded on August 7, 2025.

Douglas Irwin’s books discussed: “Trade Policy Disaster: Lessons from the 1930s”: https://direct.mit.edu/books/monograph/3374/Trade-Policy-DisasterLessons-from-the-1930s

“Clashing over Commerce: A History of US Trade Policy”: https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/C/bo24475328.html

“Peddling Protectionism: Smoot-Hawley and the Great Depression”: https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691178066/peddling-protectionism?srsltid=AfmBOoqh-ZTEvY-wNf7wqitXQpkh-tfA7MEOyqxhKCoeHo7WbyUaJRB9

Douglas Irwin’s papers discussed:

“TARIFF INCIDENCE: EVIDENCE FROM U.S. SUGAR DUTIES, 1890-1930”: https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w20635/w20635.pdf

“HIGHER TARIFFS, LOWER REVENUES? ANALYZING THE FISCAL ASPECTS OF THE "GREAT TARIFF DEBATE OF 1888"”: https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w6239/w6239.pdf

Follow Douglas Irwin on Twitter https://x.com/D_A_Irwin

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Episode 2979 CWSA 10/05/25

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