Ottoman reforms and modern eradication campaigns

In this episode, Malcolm and Simone Collins dive deep into the complex relationship between Muslim cultures and dogs, exploring the historical, religious, and cultural roots behind attitudes toward canines in Islamic societies. The discussion covers everything from ancient scripture and medieval city life to modern controversies, including the case of Hassan Piker and his treatment of dogs.

The conversation unpacks how religious texts, urbanization, and evolving public health practices shaped perceptions of dogs, and contrasts these with Western and Jewish cultural attitudes. Along the way, the hosts examine broader questions about cultural compatibility, identity, and the ways in which traditions influence modern behavior.

Whether you’re interested in history, religion, cultural analysis, or current events, this episode offers a thought-provoking look at how something as simple as dog ownership can reveal deep societal differences. Join the conversation in the comments and let us know your thoughts!

Don’t forget to like, subscribe, and share if you enjoy the discussion.

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] the Young Turks exiled 30,000 to 80,000 Istanbul strays to an island where most died.. Now, fun fact here. This is Turkey that we’re talking about again, the country where he lived. But did you know who has a show called The Young Turks?

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: St. Er, his uncle, so to say, that St. Er was willing to lionize a group systematically genocide, and 30,000 to 80,000 dogs in Istanbul. Right?

Simone Collins: Oh my goodness.

Malcolm Collins: That this is the environment that Hassan would’ve grown up in. Now his behavior and perspective towards dogs makes more sense.

Would you like to know more?

Malcolm Collins: Hello Simone. I am excited to be here today. Today we are gonna be discussing something that might be a lot deeper of a topic than our fans might expect, which is why do Muslims like torturing dogs?

Um, What?

Hold on. [00:01:00] We need to, because people might think I am being like wild here or something like that.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Or, so,

Simone Collins: well, I remember when you did something similar with Jews and dogs, and then even like a bunch of Jews that we spoke with were like, no, Jews are fine with dogs. And you’re like, what about this and what about this? And they’re like, oh my God.

Malcolm Collins: Definitely. I had no idea that my culture was historically pretty an antagonistic to dogs.

Simone Collins: Yeah. So I, I’m in that way. I’m not surprised. I’m like, well, yes, surprised me with the Jews. Bring it on with the Muslims, but what.

Malcolm Collins: Okay, so let’s go to scripture before we go further, because we’re gonna be tying this into the whole son Piker situation. Oh, okay. For example, in Sahi Muslim quote, the messenger of Allah ordered killing of the dogs and then said, what about.

Them IE about the other dogs. And then granted concession to keep the dogs for hunting and the dog for security of the herd. And said, when the dog licks the utensil, wash it seven times and rub it with earth the eighth time. Some narration, even specify harsher views, like quote, [00:02:00] kill all the dogs except those used for hunting and herding in quote or labeling black dogs as devils.

These may stem from a seventh century incident in Medina, where the prophet ordered a killing of stray dogs to control a rabies outbreak, sparing the working dogs. Scholars like Imam Malik founder of the Malik School, interpret this. He leniently allowing dogs and homes for protection while others like Imam Shafi restrict them more strictly.

So, what I’m pointing out here is this is not a a light thing. They have scripture telling them that they have a religious mandate. To kill every dog that is not being used for herding or active home protection. And some even restrict us further to just herding and hunting dogs. That,

Simone Collins: that makes sense though, to a certain extent, like considering how dangerous wild dogs can be.

Well, especially

Malcolm Collins: if you have

Simone Collins: a rabies

Malcolm Collins: outbreak in a medieval city.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Like, I mean, we always talk about culture, having practical safety and health implications and this, this [00:03:00] makes sense. And also even the whole washing thing. You know, when you have rabies, like you spit is absolutely one way that that can be transferred if you’re not necessarily being bitten, if you,

Malcolm Collins: exactly.

Simone Collins: So that, that also makes a lot of sense. I’m additionally entertained that perhaps even before the Black Cat is bad luck thing happened.

Malcolm Collins: Dogs

Simone Collins: are Devil did it first and it was a black dog. Yeah. That, that, what is it with black? Sometimes pet animals. Huh? Like, why? Why are we afraid of those ones?

Malcolm Collins: A lot of this is downstream of Muslim populations, which we’re living in, and we’ll talk about this a bit more later in larger urban environments than Europeans were, which is why Europeans didn’t develop a hatred of dogs.

In the same way that Muslims did, because most Muslims and Jews lived in dense urban settlements earlier. Mm. And in larger numbers, especially in their sense of, so dogs

Simone Collins: are not a, a steady thing. Dogs,

Malcolm Collins: dogs are not for urban specialist [00:04:00] populations. But what is really interesting here and we’ll go over the evolution of this hatred of dogs that Muslims have is how this has sort of spilled out through the Hassan Piker thing.

Because you look at Hassan Piker, so. For people who don’t know, Hassan Piker is the number one leftist Twitch streamer. He’s a, grew up incredibly privileged, but is now pretending to be poor. Dad ran a $4 billion company like I would be damn,

Simone Collins: I didn’t know it was that privilege.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, it was a, yeah, it was very big.

If, if, if it’s just such a joke that he pretends to have struggled at points in his life. But anyway, so Hassan Piker, he, for people who are unfamiliar with his controversy, I’ll just give you the high notes. It turns out that he bought like the, the single most expensive dog breed you can buy and then was worth Yeah.

Speaker 10: Would look at these majorly imposing dogs. Makes it easy to understand why they are the most expensive dog breed in the world with their long shaggy mains. These guys [00:05:00] really do look.

Side note, he, uh, pretends that he got it for free off of Craigslist from somebody who didn’t want it anymore. This is like actually ludicrous, like somebody driving around in a Ferrari and being like, oh, I just got this on Craigslist. Somebody was moving and didn’t want it anymore.

Malcolm Collins: To sit in the corner of his room. So it was always on frame while he was streaming. And whenever it attempted to move, he was shocking. It. While he has denied that, he was shocking it, the evidence from the. Images of the shot color on the doll,

the images of the shot color he showed, and then matching that shot color with images of shot colors from product pages.

We can tell exactly what color it was. It was not a rumble color, as he has said. You can change the resolution and see that he put tape over it. He friend. Who went over to see the collar said the prongs were removed and he put tape over it even though he has denied that that’s what happened. You know, couldn’t keep the story straight there.

There are odds, evidence of other people complaining that the collar is too [00:06:00] tight, which shows that you know, you would need that if you’re dealing with a shot collar and you’ve got a furry dog. There have since come up pictures of him putting. Inside Spike collars like a collar with spikes, but facing inwards towards the dog’s neck.

Was his previous dog him yanking on his previous dog’s tail, which can dislocate their spine. Him having an open wound on one of his previous

Hassan: Stay. If you run right now, I’ll kill you. Like I’ll actually kill you. Okay? In front of everyone. .

Come here.

Malcolm Collins: dog’s neck from wearing spiked collars no, he’s a really monster person when it comes to dogs. What’s

Simone Collins: the purpose of an inside spike collar? Is that

Malcolm Collins: just so like to cause additional pain if the dog tries to run away or something?

Oh, so

Simone Collins: it’s like a choke chain, but way worse.

Malcolm Collins: But way worse. Yeah. I mean, the spikes are really long and sharp. It’s not even like the, it’s like the things that you would put on a dog to keep like a wolf from eating it. Yeah. If you’ve ever seen those type of collars, but inwards oh,

Simone Collins: is that what those are for?

Malcolm Collins: Oh, you’ve never seen the, yeah. The spike things are, are to keep wolves from [00:07:00] killing your dog.

Simone Collins: Well, if they go for the neck, I mean, you can kill a dog.

Malcolm Collins: Many, they do go for the neck.

Simone Collins: Oh,

Malcolm Collins: that’s how they kill dogs. It’s okay. It actually gives the dog an enormous amount of protection against wild

Simone Collins: animals. Oh, good for them.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. Well that’s, it’s quite a cool invention. I, in my culture, I love it that I’m familiar with that and not the so

Simone Collins: no, I’m only, I’m only familiar with it insofar as I, I, I had one of them in my. Quasi toying with goth face For myself. I didn’t know. I didn’t know about their practical roots. Do

you

Malcolm Collins: have any pictures?

I haven’t seen your goth face.

Simone Collins: N no, but I definitely had a spike choker and I didn’t know that. You’re so cute. Those are the origins. Wait, come on. You know, our, we both went, you know, you had, I had my, my spike collar. We

Malcolm Collins: matched each other. At any point in life we

Simone Collins: would’ve, yeah. We always would’ve fallen in love.

Oh my God.

Malcolm Collins: Anyway, so, spikey, spiky dog collar.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: There had been video evidence of him saying that [00:08:00] he bought a collar in the past. Like a shock caller and that he was doing shock training with Kaya. But so like, it’s just like it’s comical that he would claim that he hadn’t done this.

Like I’m a little surprised he’s still doubling down because it looks. So bad. A song got to the top of YouTube songs that was about this. We’ve made songs about this. It’s hilarious. It’s hilarious. This has happened.

But I think a lot of people when they look at this, what they’re not understanding is that this is actually downstream of a cultural difference based on his upbringing.

And may not, did he have a Muslim

Simone Collins: upbringing like,

Malcolm Collins: or like an Islamic upbringing? He’s said that he’s a non-practicing Muslim. Hassan Piker was raised a Muslim, having grown up in Turkey with Turkish parents. It, it’s, but he was born in Brunswick, New Jersey, but he did live in Turkey for much of his childhood growing up in Istanbul.

And he also lived, I think, in Jordan for a period. And so he, I identifies as Muslim culturally speaking, and he [00:09:00] grew up around a population of Muslims. And if you look at the who he sides with geopolitically it is the, and this is something watch our, my God, if you haven’t seen it, it’s one of our best videos are on the politics in philosophy of Mond because it explains where the new left is going.

And what I’ve realized is the direction that the new left is going is a merger of Communism and Islamism. And the platforming and increasing platforming of Muslims or former Muslims, is that being a core part of their allure?

What I love is there’s going to be a class of progressives who might watch this and be like, but don’t you guys use corporal punishments? Like, didn’t you slap one of your kids when they almost kicked over a table? And it’s like, yes, that did happen. And I understand that that is not normal, was in every culture that lives in the United States, but the difference between us and Hassan is we.

Both talked about practicing this form of corporal punishment before the event in Question Bob Gate, [00:10:00] and we immediately admitted it and explained why we did it. So even though we might be culturally unique within America, we have a fan base who I know will respect that

Whereas Hassan knew that he was lying to his fan base about who he was.

Which is actually a great wider meta commentary on the current divide between the left and the right in the United States. Well, in the world more broadly is that the left gets along because they pretend that no one is actually different and cultures are not actually different. Whereas the right accepts that we are different and tries to make things work well.

Understanding that not all cultures might be. Compatible with all other cultures due to their differences. Hassan couldn’t just come out there like we did and be like, Hey, we’re from a different cultural background than you, because he would have to admit through saying that, that Muslims are different.

I.

Malcolm Collins: So. Hassan Piker Hassan Piker tortures his dog, but he’s also explained in other videos how [00:11:00] he sees dogs.

He says he saw dogs as like slaves and that they should be treated like slaves, right? That, that this was the just way to, to treat an animal.

Hassan: Just such a lib . Like, oh dude, please don’t get a Frenchy. I just wrote a Vox article talking about how problematic they are.

Like I don’t give a . I know they have breathing problems. I know they’re incredibly inbred. I don’t give a . I know, I know. I don’t care. Like I don’t give a . This is a dog. ,

You have an animal that you are taking care of. You have a literal slave. And not just like a slave, but you have a literal slave that you shackle, okay?

Every day pulled from their neck to and take ‘em wherever the you want to take ‘em to. And on top of that, you neuter your slave. So your slave can’t have more slaves, and you have the slave for, for just personal consumption, making yourself feel better.

And I’d point out here that this view is actually pretty rare among [00:12:00] most, , well Christian cultural groups in the United States, whether you’re talking about the Catholic cultural group or the Protestant cultural group. , For example, , from my family tradition, you would consider a dog, a member of the family, right?

Like, we don’t neuter our dog. I would never think of my dog as a slave. When we get a dog, it’s not out of. , Like I want something for my pleasure. It’s more that that is what a family unit is supposed to look like. In the same way I get a wife, like obviously I have a biological reason to get a wife, but the main reason I’m searching for a wife is because of social conventions that I grew up believing.

A correct family unit is a husband and wife, and then you have kids and a dog. , That is why I get a dog. Just as much as why I would have kids or have a wife, , .

And here you might say, well, yeah, but a wife is needed to make the kids. Like, what role does the dog have? And I would say, well, culturally it would seem obvious to me like this is just the way I was raised to think is that, , kids cannot grow up emotionally normal if they don’t have a dog. Like kids need a [00:13:00] dog that is part of childhood.

To deny a kid a dog is like leaving a kid locked in a closet. Every night, , I, I guess we literally do that with one of our kids leaving a kid locked in a closet every day. We do not lock him in the closet. He just likes to sleep there.

Malcolm Collins: And so why would he feel this way? Well, this is actually how Islam, now note, there are multiple times in the Korean where somebody is blessed by God and will go over it.

For helping a suffering dog. Oh, okay. But, but that is because those are typically earlier takes in the Koran. And as Islam has developed, not every school of Islam, we’ll get to this in a second. Okay. But most schools of Islam has developed they’ve become more anti-D dog. This, this becoming extremely anti-D dog happened between the 18 hundreds and the early 19 hundreds.

Oh,

Simone Collins: so recently.

Malcolm Collins: Very recently. Yeah. Now of course still trying to claim that it goes all the way back and everything like that, but it really doesn’t seem to it seems that if we’re going further back, it’s more pragmatic. Mm-hmm. More recently it’s just like, [00:14:00] I hate dogs. Okay. So, he likely grew up seeing dogs as something that should be seen with a degree of scorn.

Should be seen as very unclean. We’ll get into how unclean, but I mean like spiritually unclean, like in Islam, if you’re praying and a dog can see you, your prayers are discounted. So Oh, good

Simone Collins: heavens. Wow.

Malcolm Collins: Quite, yeah. No, no, no. It’s like. Dogs are like bad spiritual, ju juju, ma gumbo, right? So very, so he would’ve seen them with a degree of innate disdain.

However, as somebody, and if you look at his song, as I pointed out, you know, he works out a lot. He tries to be this hot male streamer. His audience is stupid. White women, that is his audience, right? Who want a guy they can thirst after who looks mildly progressive? Well, he knows if you are selling to stupid white, progressive women [00:15:00] intelligently, what do you want?

You want a big, pretty expensive dog in the background of your shot at all times. And that is why he has moved to do this, right? But a lot of people had an intense, like yuck at seeing a dog. Because if you come from one of my traditions, like my background, dogs are seen more like a member of the family.

Whereas if you go from one of his traditions, dogs are seen as disposable tools. So I wanna get into this, I wanna get into where this, this cultural tradition came from. And I wanna get into why has said, because I love everybody complaining that he’s doing this and not a lot of people explaining. Why he’s doing it.

Other than that he’s a sociopath. And yes, I think he’s a bit of a sociopath, but I think that there’s other regions as well. And I think that this brings me to another point, which is something that we also need to remember before I get too deep into the details here is people coming from Muslim cultural backgrounds are often.

Far more culturally distinct from you know, [00:16:00] Americans than many Americans recognize. Because we try to cover up the ways that we are culturally different.

Simone Collins: Well, I think there was also a generation of people really attempting to say Muslims are just like everyone else. Like they’re just like us. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Instead of respecting their cultural

Simone Collins: difference. Yeah. Instead of celebrating and highlighting what makes them culturally unique and strong and robust and interesting and cool. It was no, just like, no, they’re, they’re just like us and they just sometimes, you know, like once a year they fast for Ramadan.

That’s what them Muslims do, but they’re just like us otherwise, and that’s it. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And I, this

Simone Collins: is all surprising to me.

Malcolm Collins: Fun thing that I’ll be pointing out and I might have a whole episode on this if people find this to be an interesting topic. But I’d point out that if we look at the primary players in the existing cultural battlefield two of the players that are culturally closest to each other, even though a lot of people do not realize this or.

I dunno. I think because the urban monoculture is [00:17:00] so afraid of the groups realizing this is the American sort of GRE Appalachian redneck cultural group. And the let’s say basically white rural American cultural group and the American Black cultural group. Mm-hmm. These groups are very, very culturally close to each other.

And specifically if you’re wondering, what do I mean by this? And, and I’d argue that they’re much more closely cul culturally closer to each other than either is to Jews, Catholics, or Muslims. Specifically both of them have an affinity for dogs. Both of them have an affinity for decentralized religious structures.

Both of them are. People might say highly susceptible to conspiratorial thinking

Speaker 4: Lemme tell you something about the word. Good. Brother Good is an ancient Anglo-Saxon word go off, meaning the absence of color, IE. It’s all good, which it is. Or goodwill Hunting, meaning I’m hunting . So if you say good morning to me, the only thing you are saying is I’m gonna kill your [00:18:00] black first thing in the morning.

Atomic core. See what this so-called button does?

Speaker 9: Attention atomic core set to overload.

Speaker 4: My bad.

Malcolm Collins: and conspiracy theories. Both of them have a disgust for hierarchy and external group authority. Of them we’re all

Simone Collins: awesome.

Malcolm Collins: Are uniquely like interested in low culture cultural pathways. Both of them are. Well historically, at least very family oriented, but on the small family level rather than wider family structures you see in Catholics and Jews.

More nuclear family oriented with maybe only grandparents or something like that. Connections. But both, even if you think of their typical. Party environments are very similar. Like what is the typical American black party?

Simone Collins: Oh, like a barbecue in your backyard? A

Malcolm Collins: barbecue. What is the typical redneck party?

It’s a barbecue. No, I, a lot of people, like I told you [00:19:00] this before, but a lot of people just are unaware of how culturally similar these two groups are and that they’re much

Simone Collins: Yeah. Even like soul food, but like. Redneck food,

Malcolm Collins: soul food and redneck food are basically the same thing. Just

Simone Collins: Yeah, that’s, that’s actually a really good point.

Malcolm Collins: This is, well, I mean, I think it’s, it’s relevant when you have like the Nick Fuentes crowd and the groupers trying to be like, oh, hey, you, you know, classic Americans you, you are like us and not like these black Americans. And it’s like, no, I’m, I’m. Pretty sure I’m a lot closer to Black Americans than I am to you.

Yeah. Which is interesting, interesting to talk about. And that’s, that’s not to say that there aren’t, you know, conflicts between these two groups, but I think that they’re mostly engineered conflicts within a modern setting. But anyway, to continue. Dogs have become unpopular in Muslim majority societies, primarily due to their classification as ritually and poor naje in most schools of Islamic jurisprudence.

Particularly regarding their saliva, which is believed to [00:20:00] invalidate absolution. Oo, required for prayer if contact occurs. This leads to practical restriction. Dogs are. Often not kept indoors as pets. And their presence during worship is seen as nullifying prayers, which can mandate their eradication.

Interesting. The one or the one major carve out here is the Milaki School, which we talked about earlier, A Sunni Islam that distinguishes between wild dogs considered impure and domestic ones not impure. Okay. So, let’s talk about the timeline of this ‘cause I mentioned that as well.

So you’ve got the pre-Islamic era before 6,610 CE dogs were common in the region for hunting, herding and guarding, as seen in ancient rock art and burials dating back to 6,000 years. However, they did work with

Simone Collins: dogs tactically. Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: yeah. Some. pre-Islamic folklore viewed black dogs as evil or omen of manifestations of gin spirits which may have influenced later Islamic attitudes.

Okay we look at the prophetic era, six 10 to 6 32. Attitudes were generally tolerant and pragmatic. The Koran mentions dogs positively are neutrally [00:21:00] three times, which we’ll get into more details later. And the prophet Mohammad repeatedly prayed in the presence of dogs. Allowed puppies to be raised by his companions.

No. And showed kindness such as protecting a mother of a dog and her pups during military marches. Dogs were,

Simone Collins: so, Mohammed was a, the prophet Mohammed was a dog guy.

Malcolm Collins: Yes, but he did order dogs killed during a rabies outbreak, which is also a

Simone Collins: perfect, well, obviously, yeah. But you like even the most big fans of dogs, I mean, if you love dogs and wanna protect them, you gotta kill the rabid dogs or they all

Malcolm Collins: dogs.

Well, yeah. Rabid dogs are a threat to dogs as well.

Simone Collins: Exactly. Dogs grow

Malcolm Collins: freely in the mosque of the prophet in Medina during his lifetime and in the centuries after.

Simone Collins: So what changed? If it was fine then.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. One Hadith from this time does order the killing of stray dogs, but again, this appears that it was probably during a RABs outbreak, which,

yeah,

Simone Collins: fair

Malcolm Collins: one.

If people can be like, oh, that’s too convenient. I’m like, hold on, take a step back here. Mohammed wasn’t like. Jesus. Right? Like [00:22:00] Muhammad also ran an empire basically, and cities. While he was doing that, is it not unlikely that there would’ve been at least one rabies outbreak? Is it not true that unvaccinated dogs are actually very good carriers of rabies?

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Is it not true that a city might have a lot of stray dogs and a cleanup may need to be ordered?

Simone Collins: Or was there just some confusion and were they actually killing rabbis?

Malcolm Collins: Actually killing rabbis.

Simone Collins: I’m kidding. I’m kidding.

Malcolm Collins: Well, some people probably argue

Simone Collins: rabbis outbreak.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Okay, so now we’re gonna The early caliphate, medieval period.

This is 6 32 to 1700 Uhhuh. Dogs are made of utility in nomadic and urban life. In expanding Islamic cities like Baghdad and Cairo and Damascus. They served guards, hunters, and street cleaners by consuming garbage with authorities, building watering troughs. Mosques, providing food for dogs, punishments for harming other dogs were common reflecting codependence.

However, the Najee tradition [00:23:00] solidified during the Hadas compilations in the eighth and ninth centuries Key collections like Salahi Al Barak compiled. 146 and eight 70 CE and the salami Muslim 8 8 17 to 8 75 CE include reports of companions like Abu Harare stating that dog saliva required washing utensils several times, once was earth, and that angels avoid houses was dog.

This is when it became common to see black dogs as manifestations of evil. This is book 10 of the ISTs. These sadist allowed dogs only for farming, hunting, guarding, dedication, daily rewards for non utilitarian ownership. Scholars like Ima Malaki during this period though, began to push more lenient views explicitly.

This was during 7 95 ce. So what’s interesting here is when you look at Milwaukee’s view of dogs, right, how we talked about this one branch of Islam, it’s not that. He was going against an earlier way of teeing dogs. It’s that [00:24:00] he became popular when it was at the earliest era of some Muslims beginning to see dogs as needing to get rid of old dogs and is evil and useless.

Mm-hmm. And he was saying, no, no, no. Look, we’ve never seen dogs that way in the past. So he actually represents a true split and not a historical revisionism around dogs in sort of a progressive way or something like that.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So, we, we actually even see charitable endowments awa for dog care existing.

Simone Collins: Oh.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So I

Simone Collins: wonder what the early song for their promotion was if it wasn’t in the arms of the angel.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Ottoman to modern period, 18 hundreds to present. Attitude shifted markedly in the early 19th century amid emerging contagion ideas, pre germ theory, linking dogs to plagues like cholera via garbage, as centralized sanitation replaced.

Dogs cleaning roll because before this period, remember I, I pointed out that in Cairo and stuff like that, dogs would clean up. Well. Debris that was on the streets, like [00:25:00] food debris, totally rotting carcasses, rotting people potentially people died like homeless. People just like died in the streets and there were not often good cleanup crews.

That is incredibly dangerous. People who don’t know rotting human meat is one of the most dangerous things you can have anywhere. It. Because the types of bacteria that grow on rotting human meat can grow in living human meat as well.

Simone Collins: Oh,

Malcolm Collins: there’s specialists.

Simone Collins: They’re sort of like they’re little disease accelerators

Malcolm Collins: just

Simone Collins: sitting there.

Whoa.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. Actually, if you wanted to somebody and have people let’s say I’m, I don’t wanna use that word in a YouTube stream. If you wanted to unlive somebody and not have people know an interesting way you could do this is take a number of vials of your blood and put them in agar. And then set these on a window sill.

And then wait till one turns clear or clearer. That means it likely has some sort of hemo, phage growing was in [00:26:00] it. That is likely going to be quite dangerous to humans. And if you introduce that to a human being it would be, my guess is fairly hard to track. They,

Simone Collins: they, you should have saved that for the.

The paid Substack and Patreon subscribers at least. I mean,

Malcolm Collins: I

Simone Collins: have worst

Malcolm Collins: science.

Simone Collins: The worst science.

Malcolm Collins: No, your facts. Oh, oh my God. What I’m saying here is the dogs actually had a high utility, the cleaning roll, until you had these more structured systems like the Ottomans. Mm. So during the Ottoman Tanet reforms, 1839 to 1876 dogs became quote unquote, economically useless in hell hazards.

Leading to eradication campaigns. In 1910, the Young Turks exiled 30,000 to 80,000 Istanbul strays to an island where most died. And they saw this as symbolizing modernization. Now, fun fact here. This is Turkey that we’re talking about again, the country where he lived. [00:27:00] But did you know who has a show called The Young Turks?

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: St. Er, his uncle, so to say, that St. Er was willing to lionize a group systematically genocide, and 30,000 to 80,000 dogs in Istanbul. Right?

Simone Collins: Oh my goodness.

Malcolm Collins: That this is the environment that Hassan would’ve grown up in. Now his behavior and perspective towards dogs makes more sense. He is so you’re

Simone Collins: just trying to defend Hassan here.

Malcolm Collins: Really what I’m trying to say is Hassan is culturally Muslim, but he understands that his audience is urban monoculture white women.

Simone Collins: So he’s, he’s bridging the divide. The dog is there. He just needs to shock it sometimes.

Malcolm Collins: Right. Okay. But what is fun about this is I think that what we’re seeing here is that a faction of, and I think that we’re going to increasingly see this the urban monocultural movement.

Again, you sort of [00:28:00] need to see on Ani video to totally understand this. And this has been a huge shift for me in how I understand things. Mm-hmm. The urban monoculture, lionizes, Muslim and cultural practices. To such an extent that it sees them as definitionally above reproach and deserving of leadership positions.

And that their role, if they are white, is to lower the white population or to displace the white population with immigrants. And any population that’s not interested in getting on board. This includes American black populations that won’t also. You know, begin to bow to specifically Islamist immigrants.

And I’ll note here, you can be like, what about the Islamic local black population? I am unaware of any of them because it is pretty big in the United States. Any of them with mainstream leadership positions in progressive circles that is either as thought leaders like Hassan or Yure. Or positions like Mond or the various Muslims we have in Congress right now like that are part of this [00:29:00] sort of new pac.

So I should note that they treat them as an underclass and see them as a neuro class because they come from a classist culture. Well, what we’re seeing here is the beginnings of conflict and fractures in this movement where some of these white women are beginning to realize. These Islamists that we have been worshiping and platforming and that our movement sees as a goal of replacing us may have incompatible cultural practices, IE their perspective towards dogs with our own cultural practices.

Yeah, I’m going to go to the pragmatist guide to Crafting Religions. ‘cause we wrote on this some here. Mm-hmm. So Islamic cities were more sophisticated than their Christian, quote unquote dark Age correlates. And in response to the spread of disease, they developed dedicated authorities to remove trash from cities before these trash authorities were created.

Dogs help. To clinging city streets and thus were beneficial after they lost one of their [00:30:00] core urban utilities, dog became nothing but pests. It could be argued that the difference in views of dogs between Western European Cult of Arts, this is cultural or religious groups, and their Islamic counterparts, is primarily due to Islamic cities earlier invention of sanitation practices.

And the denser nation of Islamic Urban Centers, this dislike it dogs is actually fairly common across urban focused cultures such as Jewish culture. The Talmud is quite explicit in its criticism of dog ownership and Salam Navarra Rab. Rabbinic. The Fiddler on the roof. Guy at one point said, quote, if a Jew has a dog, either that dog is no dog, or that Jew is no Jew in quote, general Jewish distaste for dog ownership can be seen in the STA Israelis owning a dog a ra.

Much more than. Four times lower than the general dog ownership in the United States. There is a common myth among Jewish community that this dislike of dogs began after the Holocaust. However, considering that Robin quote, the one I did from the Fiddler and the Wge came from [00:31:00] 1903, this superstition is unfounded.

It is unclear whether Jewish. Against dog ownership first arose. For example, Joffrey Miller argues that the presence of thousands of dogs in a cemetery near the Ashlan dating from the fifth century be shows Jews of the Period were fond of dogs. That’s

Simone Collins: Jeffrey Miller. That’s Diana’s,

Malcolm Collins: yeah. Husband who’ve had on the podcast actually while Lawrence.

Staiger argues that Ashlin was a Phoenician city during that period. In the paper, quote, dogs in Jewish Society in the Second Temple period, and in the time of Isha in Talmud, in quote Joshua Schwartz observes that quote, most of the Jewish sources for the second temple period. And the time of the Micha and the Talmud continued to maintain the negative attitude of dogs expressed in the biblical tradition and conceives quote, it is improbable that dogs in Jewish society were objects of the same degree of affection as they received in Greco-Roman [00:32:00] world or in the Persian world, in quote, Islamic and Jewish anti-D dog attitudes.

Are pragmatic for people who live in cities. Dogs make a ton of of sense if you are trying to herd animals or protect livestock on a farm or hunt because you live in a rural environment or protect rural property, but little sense for people living in a city and can even be quite dangerous.

However, for the same reasons rural cult waterers are usually pro dog on the subject of dogs For defense, it may not be. A stereotype that dogs are objectively effective at preventing crime. Neighborhoods with higher levels of dog ownership tend to have lower levels of homicide, robbery, and aggravated assaults.

Admittedly, this may not be the dogs themselves that prevent crime, but the association could be totally correlation or perhaps a dog’s work as effective signals. After all. If rural cultivars are in favor of both dog and gun ownership, criminals are going to learn after a while that breaking into a house with a dog is much more likely to lead to [00:33:00] lead in your head than one without a dog.

Hmm. If it should come as no surprise, the, the inherited Calvinist and Scottish Irish English cultures we grew up in were rapidly pro dog to the extent that it would be seen as actual child abuse to raise a kid without a dog in my family. In fact, not a single person in any branch of my family with kids does not have a dog.

Our family canine cultural biases exist to dog breeds as well with our cultural tradition. Seeing dogs that do not work, IEG Chihuahuas, pit bulls, stuff like that as being a sign of moral failures in their owners.

Simone Collins: I mean, pit bulls work if you are part of an underground dog fighting ring.

Malcolm Collins: Not in any sort of moral societally beneficial labor.

That’s true. Even though we do not personally work our dogs, this is illogical, but perhaps related to a cultural memory of dogs being a tool of utility we find ourselves wondering whether people’s inherited affinities for dog ownership are a product of mere cultural memory. Or an intuition that might serve some [00:34:00] purpose in our current and future society.

The research on this topic seems to indicate that dog ownership during childhood positively impacts kids’ immune systems reduces allergies. That’s what

Simone Collins: sold me when you wanted to get a dog.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And improves eq while studies correct. For this, it is critical to note the dog ownership is also heavily associated with higher socioeconomic status.

Ultimately we decided the dog ownership is not just. Traditional, but also logical hints us having a dog. The biggest risk culturally speaking of pets in the modern world comes from disease and their ability to satiate people’s hunger For parenthood. Most humans feel an instinct to have kids just like pornography, but pet ownership can be used to masturbate and ritzy.

Relieves its biological drive. You see this every time somebody walks around with their dog and cat as a quote unquote baby, or treats their pet in such a way. Now I note here both Islamic and Jewish culture are higher fertility rate than cultures that treat dogs as babies or that lionize this, cultures [00:35:00] that found the idea of having sex with animals disgusting long before they cared about consent or animal wellbeing. Sex as animals is one of the many pathways that lead to non-productive sexual relief and hence lower birth rates. And recall that any culture that allows for cultural practice that leads to lower birth rates, where ultimately be outcompeted by one that has cultural practices that lead to higher birth rates within the culture, we are intentionally building for our.

Family or house. Pets are framed as a tool for improving children and protecting the family, and must never be used to ate a hunger for companionship or emotional and sexual desires. Mm-hmm. Our children will be strongly discouraged from getting a dog before they have kids or as quote unquote, practice for having kids.

Simone had always told me that a dog would be a reward for having kids, and I think that that’s a very good way to frame it. Now we don’t have a strong thesis on cat ownership, but studies show that religious service and attendance is heavily, negatively correlated with cat ownership, but not dog ownership.

Specifically Christian worship. [00:36:00] Ownership of was ACS being more likely to own cats. So interesting there. Now I can go deeper in just specific IC mentions around dogs, positive mentions, negative mentions, or we can just talk about this. What are your thoughts?

Simone Collins: I am curious to know what thes.

Says about dogs because that’s, I don’t know, shouldn’t that be what kind of governs your decision if you’re considering how godly or not a dog is? And, and that’s supposed to be where, you know, the Yeah. The root of your cultural religious protections come from. So what? What does the Quran say about dogs?

So

Malcolm Collins: the one haddi, the Sally Muslim states, quote, a what do you call this? A Woman of the night was forgiven by Allah because passing by a panting dog near a well and seeing that the dog was about to die of. Thst, she took off her shoe and tying it with her head cover, she threw out some water for it.

So Allah forgave her because of that. So being, so

Simone Collins: being, but that, that’s just showing [00:37:00] compassion, you know?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I dunno if

Simone Collins: that’s dog specific. So

Malcolm Collins: let’s, in another. While a man was walking, he felt thirsty and went down to a well to drink water from it. On coming out of it, he saw a dog panting and eating mud because of excess serus.

Aw. Then the man said, this dog is suffering from the same problem of mine. So he went down the well, filled his shoe with water and. Caught, caught hold of it with his teeth and climbed up out of the water for the dog. Allah thanked him for his good deed and forgave him. The grim.

Simone Collins: Wait, but hold on. So this guy, he went to a well to get water for himself,

Malcolm Collins: presumably,

Simone Collins: and then he wanted to get water to the dog

Malcolm Collins: himself.

Simone Collins: Like, was he also getting water for himself with his shoe? Did he also

Malcolm Collins: No, no, no. This is my read from understanding this, which is wild that he did this. So apparently he climbed down the well bent over drank from the standing pool of water. That was how he filled himself

Simone Collins: himself. And

Malcolm Collins: then the dog

Simone Collins: got of shoe, used his shoe

Malcolm Collins: bugs bunny [00:38:00] nonsense instead of just like lever and pulley systems here.

Simone Collins: Yeah, they, they need to build better infrastructure. But I mean, this certainly demonstrates the fact that I’m seeing a correlation between people being nice to dogs and a complete lack of infrastructure. So. Checks out. Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Interesting. Do you know in modern Saudi Arabia, 77.4% of pet ownerships are cats?

Simone Collins: Wow.

Malcolm Collins: I also find a lot of weird feeding dogs with shoe water.

Simone Collins: Something about, yeah. And something about these like Dutch style clogs that were, you know, you could keep water in them because I don’t know, most, when I think of historical European shoes, they would’ve. Quickly leaked all the water out. Yeah.

Actually I

Malcolm Collins: wanna look this up. Ancient Muslim shoe.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Because apparently this is just, you’re also defacto emergency water canteen.

Malcolm Collins: So they were made with leather and it looks like they, yeah, they might have been able to hold water.

Simone Collins: Wow. [00:39:00] Okay. Good for

them.

Malcolm Collins: That’s a, that’s an interesting factoid right there.

But the larger thing is, is we as a society need to stop pretending everyone’s culturally the same, okay? Mm-hmm. And we also need to admit that some cultures might be incompatible with other cultures, right? I might, you know, have concerns about the way that Muslims treat dogs. Mm-hmm. But. I think that they have a right to treat the dogs that you know, grew up around their ancestors and that, you know, sort of co-evolved with these populations within their traditional environments like this.

But I think somebody who doesn’t want to convert to our culture, right? Like Hassan for example, he has, he has said many times that he thinks, for example, recently he said that we are in the imperial capital. Speaking of being in New York. And that be being there, you know, that we, unfortunately he said, defeated the, the communists of, of Russia, you know, that literally were genocide people, like not a fun group.

I, I also saw recently that [00:40:00] he said that like we are, that Kim Jong-Un has done nothing that America hasn’t done which was really weird. I was like.

Simone Collins: Huh? Why? Well, I don’t know. I mean, maybe Kim Jong-Un hasn’t done a whole lot. I mean, keep in mind he inherited. His position from Kim Jong-il. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: But he could

Simone Collins: have stopped intergenerational

Malcolm Collins: the prison system that they have that you can be born into and live your entire life in a concentration camp.

Yeah. For one of your parents country.

Simone Collins: Yeah. But I mean, also our presidents haven’t stopped the prison system, so he hasn’t done anything. Our prison system, well, we don’t

Malcolm Collins: have an intergenerational prison system.

Simone Collins: Right. And so our precedents haven’t done that either. I don’t, I dunno

Malcolm Collins: that

Simone Collins: that does

Malcolm Collins: not, that is not comparable, Simone.

So what is your thoughts on this? What is your thoughts on the whole Hassan situation? Because,

Simone Collins: well, listen, I mean, the Muslims still aren’t eating [00:41:00] dogs, so can we really be that bad, bad

Malcolm Collins: dogs

Simone Collins: do, do

Malcolm Collins: what? I don’t know about this.

Simone Collins: I don’t think they eat dogs. Dude, if you think a dog is gonna mess up your prayers just by looking at you, I don’t think you’re eating it.

If, if you need to wash. Yeah. Yeah. They’re considered incredibly forbidden. Yeah. So I know they’re not eating the dogs. But South Koreans, you know, they kept asking you when you were, you know, the Muslims can’t eat

Malcolm Collins: anything that’s carnivorous.

Simone Collins: Wait

Malcolm Collins: with fangs

Simone Collins: Muslim. That’s

Malcolm Collins: why they can’t eat dogs is because dogs are carnivorous.

Simone Collins: So they couldn’t eat lion meat.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, they can’t eat dogs. Wolves,

Simone Collins: cats, lions,

Malcolm Collins: crocodiles, alligators

Simone Collins: because they have, they have tusks. I guess. Do tusks count as fangs because I’ll eat anything.

Malcolm Collins: I don’t think so. But they didn’t, I mean, they can’t eat pigs obviously, because pigs are haram as well.

Simone Collins: Right. Oh wow. It’s like a big

Malcolm Collins: thing for them

Simone Collins: is pig. Yeah. Again, I was just steeped in the culture of [00:42:00] Muslims are just like us. They just. Pray a lot.

Malcolm Collins: They’re really not. Watch our video on child marriage that we did on just how different mainstream and powerful Muslim organizations are from Western organizations that if you, for example, ‘cause I didn’t know this before we did that episode, if any of they want, any Muslim has ever told you, oh, Aisha actually wasn’t nine when she married the prophet.

She wasn’t what was it? 11 or 13 when they consummated their marriage. Mm-hmm. Is that

Simone Collins: so much better?

Malcolm Collins: They, they’re like, that was a mistranslation. They, they, and you could look at these other sources. The problem is, is anyone who’s telling you that what they’re not telling you is a caveat is, but the vast majority of Muslims in Muslim majority countries.

Do believe she was nine and that they consummated their marriage at the age of no, whatever, 13. Th this is an incredibly fringe belief that they are preaching to you and an incredibly revisionist belief that you probably, so even it was

Simone Collins: true. It, it almost kind of doesn’t matter

Malcolm Collins: because, so it’s kind of irrelevant ‘cause [00:43:00] like 95% of Muslims in like Pakistan or Iran or Saudi Arabia would believe this.

Simone Collins: Very interesting. Yeah, that’s a great point.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. Like, so, and, and of course that affects their behavior and their actions. Yeah. It affects their behavior and their actions after they immigrate. And I think that this is why courts have very wisely. Recently there was a case of grape of, of a kid. A young girl.

I think this was in Sweden or Norway. I don’t know if you’ve been seeing this one. But it didn’t last long enough. So the guy’s not getting jailed for it

Simone Collins: last long enough.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, they said it was short and it was his culture anyway. So maybe then his culture is incompatible with Northern European culture.

I

Simone Collins: didn’t know that quickies didn’t count as.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. Well, and this is the thing, when I talk about cultural diversity being like a dish, right? A dish is going to be boring if it’s just one ingredient, right? But [00:44:00] you don’t just add any ingredient to any dish, right? You add ingredients. Selectively. Right.

And at certain amount, see America like salt. You know, it might want a certain amount of Catholics, but it may not want much over 20% of Catholics. ‘cause then it’s too salty. Right? It might want a certain amount of Jews. Jews might, might be like spice or something like that, that I’m adding to my chicken, right?

That might make it better. Right? But it might not want all spice. Right? Like that might make it too spicy, right? This is true.

Simone Collins: I did once think that there were certain ingredients you couldn’t have too much of and you actually can, I didn’t think you could have too much butter that you can.

Malcolm Collins: And then, you know, Muslims might be like peanut butter.

You might want a little bit if peanut butter sauce was your chicken, but there’s not really a chicken peanut butter dish. Or if you’re making it, you may not want any salt on that dish because peanut butter may have a different effect. The point that I’m making here is we need to [00:45:00] be aware that different ethnicities and different cultures and different religions are actually different.

Is pant

Simone Collins: tie kind of. Chicken dish.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah, I guess it could be. Right? So you, you make it like that and then it works, right? Yeah. But in that one, maybe chicken’s like a smaller, what am I eating tonight, by the way? What do we have a thaw?

Simone Collins: We don’t have anything thaw. I mean, everything’s ready to be, it’s supposed to be frozen until the moment of, and then I thaw.

So we can really do anything. We have Burmese min chicken, we have barbecue. We have like, sorry, the, the slow cooked brisket, chili we have.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, that was good. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Bullock, we have

Malcolm Collins: I think I might go for Bullock because it’s been a while.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Bullock is so good.

Simone Collins: It is my,

Malcolm Collins: what I really wanna try to make is because I kept mispronouncing in, globalize the inata, globalize, the empanada, a globalized empanada, and I really, it’s [00:46:00] whatever where we, we make it with like a, a, a taco shell and cheddar, and I think it would taste really good.

Simone Collins: That’s not an empanada, that’s an, I

Speaker 11: Oh my God. Still butt off. Globalizing, pan off. Yeah, we’re gonna toasty. We need to amputate your butt. No. Do you know what that means? Do you know what amputating means? Toasty. I don’t know. It means we need to cut it off. I think we have to cut off your butt. I think it’s, I think it’s pretty serious.

This right here. Oh my God.

Malcolm Collins: don’t care. It’s a globalized inata. I don’t like empanadas. Okay.

Simone Collins: What about a globalized stuffed piata? I can do that with a,

Malcolm Collins: a globalized stuffed piata. Okay.

Simone Collins: We have to get potatoes for that anyway. Well, we’ll, we’ll do bulldog tonight. Let’s just do bulldog.

Malcolm Collins: Oh. And do the one with the extra mushroom.

If [00:47:00] you have that one. That one was so good.

Simone Collins: Okay, I’ll try to

Malcolm Collins: put it

Simone Collins: down.

Malcolm Collins: Any final thoughts?

Simone Collins: This was interesting and I had no idea. So this now makes two religious subgroups that are not great with the dogs, not a big family. Well, Jews don’t

Malcolm Collins: have a religious mandate to kill them all and many Muslims do.

Simone Collins: Okay. Touche.

Malcolm Collins: So it’s a little different.

Simone Collins: And then yeah, but then in, in Seoul you just, I mean like some people think they’re cute and have ‘em as pets and some people just eat ‘em. And it’s not about hate, it’s about taste.

Malcolm Collins: And again, I actually do not mind that he used a shot color. I mind the way he was using a shot color.

That was messed up, man. That was not cool.

Simone Collins: Like, yeah. Yeah. To have a dog sit in one place for that long, to have, especially

Malcolm Collins: a dog that big, that can cause lots of health complications.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Malcolm Collins: But anyway, I don’t. Hassan to be a good person. Hopefully we keep rising in fame and one day we’re like at his [00:48:00] level of fame and we can do something there.

I mean, we’re, we’re still growing. You haven’t, like what you mean

Simone Collins: do something there? What? Put one of our children in the corner with a shock collar. And so then

Malcolm Collins: honestly, you in the corner with a shock collar, I’m gonna go to the debate with him and have a button to shock you. Just to,

Simone Collins: a bunch of people I think bought the shock collar after this whole incident and there are videos of them like daring each other to turn it all the way up and shock each other, which is the

Malcolm Collins: song challenge.

Simone Collins: Pretty dangerous because you know, it’s meant to go through like thicker fur and stuff and we don’t have that. Oh,

Malcolm Collins: please stop being a baby.

Simone Collins: Oh my gosh, what a thing that was.

Malcolm Collins: Well it’s been interesting because so many of his glazer’s have refused to go back on it, even though it’s very obviously true at this point and it.

I think it’s done a lot to discredit sort of the core of that movement. And he has lost followers since then. He has lost view counts since then. And like 10%, 20% I think so. Not like a ton, but still a meaningful amount. It seems

Simone Collins: to hurt though, if he’s a trust fund kid, then I guess it doesn’t [00:49:00] matter, so if one’s fine,

Malcolm Collins: well no, but it matters to the growth of where the Democratic party goes.

Mm-hmm. How much is he and hugger. And Manami able to incept the progressive movement with this Islamist flavor of communism. Or is that gonna die out?

Simone Collins: It’s clearly on the rise, so I don’t

Malcolm Collins: think, yeah, and it’s weird that it’s on the rise after the Gaza war is over. Like we were sort of told, Hey, when this is over, this is over.

Interesting.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you for enlightening me. I, I love these conversations, so I’m grateful to you.

Malcolm Collins: I am grateful to you, Simone. You are a great wife. And by the way, I had a, a, a, would it be too hard? And you can push back if this is too hard.

Simone Collins: Oh.

Malcolm Collins: To do the CG perrow and then put it in taco shells with fresh [00:50:00] cut ka barlo peppers and mozzarella.

And what

Simone Collins: are kalo peppers?

Malcolm Collins: Those are the peppers that you have that are fresh in the I was just thinking, ‘cause we’ve got them fresh right now.

Simone Collins: You t red chili peppers and that’s it. I used up all the green-ish

Malcolm Collins: peppers. Oh, you used up all the green ones. Okay.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Okay, well then we’ll just do the we

Simone Collins: Can I have T red peppers?

If you wanna go for it tonight. Have steam come out your ears.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I might not mind trying, it was just the cheese.

Simone Collins: So you want shredded cheddar cheese tacos with crud. Whatever that stuff is, the Thai stuff that you can do. Yeah. Do we

Malcolm Collins: have any lettuce or anything we could put in it?

Simone Collins: No. No. We have no lettuce.

Malcolm Collins: We could put carrot.

Simone Collins: Yeah, we could, I could do those. You liked those tiny little carrot shreds that I chopped up for you? Yeah, yeah. I can very easily make those. You want those for texture? So keep those fresh and then basically just do, like, no, I

Malcolm Collins: wouldn’t have them totally fresh. I would fry them up when you reheat this so that [00:51:00] they’re partially fresh.

Simone Collins: Okay, so you want stir fried carrots and then you want them put in basically half quesadilla is in small corn tortilla shells with Yeah, the, okay. I am, I think I can do that.

Malcolm Collins: This sounds really interesting and I’m excited to try it.

Simone Collins: Yeah, it quesadillas, it’s like a chicken quesadilla, but with. Okay. Sorry.

I need to look up the actual name of this stuff. Okay. It is called, there’s a lot of

Malcolm Collins: Thai basil and,

Simone Collins: Yeah, it is,

it is Pad al.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah,

Simone Collins: pad Kal. So truly globalizing

Malcolm Collins: the Tata

Simone Collins: pad. Al, sorry. Yeah, sorry. Padel quesadillas with shredded. Saute carrot.

Malcolm Collins: I’m gonna take pictures. I’m gonna put them in this episode so you guys can see.

Simone Collins: Well, we’ll we’ll see if they turn out, you know, and then, then, then you can decide. [00:52:00]

Malcolm Collins: But definitely cook, cook the carrots from the beginning.

‘cause carrots are like quite bity, like, like hard. Mm-hmm. If they’re not cooked at all. So cook them when you reheat it in a oil,

Simone Collins: when I reheat the, the pad gr pal. And then, yeah. Okay, sure. You got it. I’m

Malcolm Collins: so excited for this. Love you.

Simone Collins: I love you too. Okay. . Ah, it works.

Malcolm Collins: So, something I’ve been thinking a lot about recently because I was looking at, like, doing an episode on this because I got this thought in my head. Okay. And we’ve done an episode in the past on like. Sexuality and why we view it so different from flavor preference as a society. ‘cause I found that, you know, a really weird thing.

Oh, like

Simone Collins: what? Just enjoying spicy foods.

Malcolm Collins: Well, like, you know, I might like vanilla ice cream and another person might like strawberry ice cream and we don’t have. You know, we don’t base our identities around this. But recently I had a bigger revolution when I was thinking about this and it was sexuality.

How is that different [00:53:00] from kinks? Like same sex attraction. Okay. In what? Meaningful way is same sex attraction, not just a kink. It’s a, it’s a arousal tie to an unusual sort of stimuli, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So I’m gonna AI and I’m trying to get like, what’s the best steelman against this? And it’s like, well, you know, you know, which gender preference you have is about who you’re attracted to, not what?

And I’m like, well, then a chubby chaser is a sexuality at that point, because that’s about who you’re attracted to, not what and. Basically what I came away from, and I’ll, I’ll put together a stronger thing on this and, and all of the counter arguments, is that a more healthy way to deal with. I think same sex attraction is to just view it as a category of kink and to be open about kinks, but to not place any kink above other kinks as like a form of identity or something.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And I think once we do that and there isn’t really a strong argument against it, the like can you think of one?

Simone Collins: No. No. [00:54:00] Definitely not

Malcolm Collins: like in, in what way is it not just an unusual and sometimes disadvantageous arousal pattern.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And sometimes advantageous. But yeah, no one should get privileged for having one rather another.

I mean, no one can control it.

Malcolm Collins: Right. But I

Simone Collins: think like some people just are lucky in the same way. Some people are lucky to be taller, for example.

Malcolm Collins: The bigger thing is, is that once you categorize it as a kink, then a lot of the negative externalities that come from it go away. Specifically you one don’t have it glorified as much, but two, you do not, you no longer see it as a, as a, positive thing to be constantly sharing with other people or constantly broadcasting because our society already has sort of, I think, very sane rules around kinks. Like you can have the kink you wanna have. I’m not gonna like shame you for it unless you force me to participate in it in some way.

Exactly.

Malcolm Collins: Or you are constantly broadcasting it.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Or impose it on someone else without their consent. [00:55:00] In any

Malcolm Collins: way right now, the reason why this becomes a problem with sexual orientation is somebody could say that seeing two same sex attracted people in public is in a way forcing them to participate in their kink.

Yeah. Eeg like a person, you know, dressing someone up like a pony and walking them in public or something like that. And I think. I’m actually still okay with categorizing it. Anything, even with that negative externality?

Simone Collins: Well, I mean there are many places where any forms of public displays of affection are, are considered not okay.

You know where, where, yeah, it’s probably men and women aren’t supposed to be hugging or kissing publicly. So I think you have to hold similar standards, like also to that extent then you would have to hold the same standards for heterosexual couples.

Malcolm Collins: Right, but here’s

Simone Collins: what manifesting,

Malcolm Collins: even if you got rid of all of those scenarios mm-hmm.

If somebody decided to get same sex married, right? Mm-hmm. Which presumably they may want to [00:56:00] do then that would be like getting married in like BDSM gear or something like that, which, you know, obviously some people do, but it’s something that, you know, that society would prefer not to normalize.

And so, am I okay with it? Even with that negative externality? I think yes, primarily because it’s not sustainable long-term anyway. By this what I mean is you can’t get above replacement fertility rates within same-sex attracted populations that live the same-sex lifestyle with current technology.

So it’s not really relevant to attempt to preserve as a sustainable aspect of our society. And if you look at the way we treated same-sex attraction you know, in the medieval period and stuff like that, often it was just like a kink. But like obviously you never get married, right? Like, you never engage that far with your kink.

And I think that’s probably okay. I don’t know. We’ll think about it longer.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Something to ponder.

Malcolm Collins: Any thoughts on the episode today?

Simone Collins: There seems to just be very, I, I really appreciate the [00:57:00] comments that were like, just very grounded, reasonable theories, like a combination of things that I think are all very plausible.

Among them being people who are bisexual are probably more likely to be dis dissatisfied with their existing sexuality and exploring more, and people like that are more likely to be overall less happy and have other issues in their lives. Plus also that there, there may be kind of like a sampling error and that a lot of people who call themselves bisexual may also be trans and be undergoing all these other additional issues and stuff and, and, and be straddling identities, different identities in a way that one person said it was maybe akin to being mixed race or identifying as mixed race in the United States.

Yeah. Where there’s additional stress of never feeling like. Like any team totally backs you. You know, you’re, you’re kind of, you’re not accepted into any category at that point, and that sucks. So I really, I’m glad that we asked everyone to weigh in because the,

Malcolm Collins: yeah, [00:58:00] there’s a lot of fun.

Simone Collins: Yeah, and it’s cool with comments too, because you can see more broadly what resonates with a lot of people by how many up votes the comments get.

So you can kind of see like, okay, well this seems to be the consensus in terms of a theory.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. That’s really cool. All right. Mm-hmm. All right.

Simone Collins: I love this spot. Now, this community is, is just so great.

Speaker 13: Oh wait, are you super tighten? Right? I’m on that. Okay. Here, I’m gonna put on your mask here. No, I just only wear when it’s Halloween time. It’s Halloween time. The mean. You mean it Halloween? Yeah. Let’s have a look at the mask. Pull it up. Pull it up so you can see out of it. No. Can we get so Tan Titan?

Yeah. Do you like being super titan? I do.

Are you a scary dragon?

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe