I'm sure you've heard the quote by the famous computer scientist, Brian Kernigan, where he says that computer programs are written by humans for other humans to read and only incidentally for computers to execute. That's kind of the attitude I try to bring towards my podcast where this conversation is between a host and a guest for the pleasure of the people participating in the conversation but only incidentally for the audience. You know far more about this field now than I do, given your centrality in it now. There's these stories about how in the 90s and the thousands computer science professors would force students to write out their programs. And we don't do that nowadays because we realize that why not

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