Contrasts of Johannesburg: Wealth and Poverty

In this episode, we dive into the economic impacts of belief in witchcraft across various African societies. We examine multiple academic studies and articles highlighting how these beliefs permeate even educated and affluent demographics, influencing everything from entrepreneurship and governance to public health. Through the lens of these studies, we explore how such beliefs contribute to external locus of control and discourage rational problem-solving methods essential for economic development. The discussion spans across different African countries, revealing the deep-seated cultural contexts that impact societal progress and governance.

Malcolm Collins: Hello Simone. Today we are gonna be talking about a spicy topic. Oh no. Which is how belief in witches economically holds back Africa.

And we will be going over a, a number of articles on this. One is a great por piece, which is. How belief in which it holds Africa back or something like that. Oh, we'll get to in a second. Okay. Actually, I'll start with a quote from it because people might be hearing this and I think the way their brain is translating it is poor, uneducated people in Africa believe in which is, and these people are arguing somehow this affects everyone.

That is not what we are arguing here. Okay. So to quote from the article one might assume that formal education would provide a safeguard against magical thinking. However, research suggests that schooling alone is not sufficient. In a 2014 study, Henry Ryman and colleagues compared cognitive ability in epistemic rationality in Nigeria.

And Germany, they found belief in supernatural forces was prevalent. Even among the educated Nigerians. Surveys of African University students have reached similar findings In a sample of Nigerian students, many argued that western countries were more technologically advanced because they possessed magical powers that they refused to share was Africans, now I should note here, this came from a study called Witchcraft in African Development, Eric Cher. And it was published in 2014. So this is an academic study that goes and asks Nigerian college students, why are western countries wealthier? And their answer is, they have magic. They haven't shared with us that, that this is college students.

Nigeria. That's pretty wild. I wanna, I wanna clarify that the, the Afro Barometer survey shows that in some countries, educated people are more likely to believe in witchcraft, not less. These results underline that. The education system. So, so if you, this comes from a study called Power Politics in the Supernatural, exploring the role of witchcraft beliefs.

In gover for Government's development by Joanna Selfie Elson, Dan Bke and Bob Face. And specifically in Malawi populations, they found 74% of the population believed that witchcraft is an integral part of daily life. And educated residents were more likely to be inclined towards disbelief than less educated residents.

Simone Collins: More educated is more like, that's so interesting. And actually,

Malcolm Collins: same with social status, more social status, but more belief in witches. Less social status rush belief in witches.

Simone Collins: That is completely the opposite of what I would think. How is this happening?

Malcolm Collins: Well, what you are mis receiving is what is associated with social status and what is associated with education.

And this is what the West fundamentally doesn't understand. They think if you go and you learn what they tell you in. Education, you know, more of what's true, not just more of the mindset of the dominant culture within that region.

Oh, and what's actually

happening is when they are educated and they are not the country bumpkin.

You, you haven't even heard of witches. Let me explain to you the complicated nature of witchcraft.

Simone Collins: You know, well, I mean, well, yeah. I mean, to your point, the. Universities of the United States start broadly speaking, where the urban monoculture reaches anyone who thus far had only gone to Catholic school or a religious school or homeschool or whatever.

And, and

Malcolm Collins: yeah. And I wanna be clear that I don't think that this is true of all African cultures and communities, but that it is true of any African cultures and communities is telling and, and, and, and could mean a lot in terms of the de the development of, economic systems within these regions and we'll get to how it ends up.

And, and what I mean by this, by brainwashing, there's actually a great Atlantic piece we have to do a, a piece on that's titled Get This, the Liberal Misinformation Bubble about use Gender Medicine, how the left ended up disbelieving the Science.

Simone Collins: Interesting. Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Atlantic. Wow. And, and, and specifically what the piece is on is the belief that you know, it increases a kid's li risk of taking their life if they don't go through gender transition.

And they point out here that actually the the SU Supreme Court case on this unveiled that that is just completely was out. Any evidence at all. All of the evidence for this is apparently fabricated when, or not fabricated, but it just doesn't hold up to the counter evidence that this isn't the case.

And this is what's admitted in, in court. But what I mean there is that is a religious belief. Which is spouted by people who have been indoctrinated within the university system or centers of power within our own society. So, you know, who are we to laugh at? You know, Africans who are believing in witchcraft when we believe that, you know, kids are less if you, if you, if you surgically mutilate a child and put them on puberty blockers, that they will be less likely to take their life, right?

That's something that anyone should be like, that doesn't sound true to me at all. But apparently, and, and I would put this in the context of you know, gendered non-content use the 2023 study that showed that of 13 year olds who are not content with their birth gender more than nine of 10 of them by the age of 23, are completely content with it.

So, you know, we know that, you know, at this stage, that is a phase from the evidence. Mm-hmm. You know. To keep going was the witch thing. 'cause let's talk about witches here. Arrests and evidence here. Now this I found really fascinating to learn about in mid 2024 Zambian Police. So this is mid 20, 24, December 20th, actually 2024.

So I guess late. In mid-December 2024, Zambian police arrested Justin Matis, Knabe 42 and Leonard Re 43 Zambian Village Chief at a lusca hotel room. Authority seized ritual items, a live chameleon sealed in a bottle, white powder, red cloth animal tail, along with multiple containers of traditional medicine.

They were charged with practicing witchcraft. They were hired by Nelson Banda, the brother of Fugitive, former MP Emmanuel JJ Banda, who escaped custody. They were trying to hex the president. Okay. They agreed sorry, the payment varied in reports, but they were paid at $7,400, around 43 million Zambian Kawa.

Wow. Although other testimonies suggested they could have been paid over a million dollars to cast these taxes. So, you know, high, high. Wealthy people, you know, brothers of mainstream politicians are hiring expert witches to cast things on other politicians, and we're talking well, and

Simone Collins: also it's illegal, whereas I don't think witchcraft is illegal in the us.

I. Because, or at least in most US states, because I think most US states don't think witchcraft is a thing. I mean, the very fact that they were arrested for it means that there is some understanding that, one, it's real, and two, it's dangerous.

Malcolm Collins: Well, if you're looking at Zambians, 79% of Zambians reportedly believe in this.

Oh, wow. So you're, it's interesting

Simone Collins: that it's also illegal, so they believe in it.

Malcolm Collins: They don't like it. They think witches are evil. You know, they, I, I, I point is it

Simone Collins: though, I mean, when you and I were in Johannesburg and we went to that traditional market witch stuff, they think that there's

Malcolm Collins: like a type of dark witch that's evil, but then there's like a regular, oh, also like the dark

Simone Collins: ma magic is probably legal.

And then the. Like sympathetic magic and like healing magic is fine. Magic.

Malcolm Collins: And, and I will note that I, I, I talk about all of this with a lot of consternation 'cause this is their culture and their religion and, you know, they have a right to this. But we will talk about how these cultural beliefs as we go further into this.

Prevent effective entrepreneurship within these countries. And, and that this is very damaging to them. Mm-hmm. And it's also, you know, if you're talking about 79%, 79% of Americans don't believe in God, I would guess, you know, like this is, this is, this shows how permeated these societies all are.

Yeah. It's, it's

Simone Collins: a lot of faith in a world that is becoming increasingly faithless. So we'll talk about that in, I have outlined a rel an episode on rising new secular religions. But yeah, it's a lot though, like that's there. There's something powerful here if that many people believe in something that is not backed up by science or physics.

Malcolm Collins: The Zambian traditional healer, Dr. Vogel, based in a wealthy suburb of Lusca, admitted to serving mostly middle and upper class clients, especially women seeking protection from spiritual harm. Wow. So what's interesting here is who is buying this? It is the African version of the American crystal lady.

Yeah. Well, crystal

Simone Collins: lady or person who pays for psychics or zodiac stuff, or which are often upper middle class women. Yeah. No, it's, it's white women buying from goop, but go on. Well,

Malcolm Collins: is that not goop? Is this not the goop, but the, the, the, the point I'm making here is again, you, you, you, you see heavily upper middle class saying, and if you're like, again, how could this hurt an economy?

Even think about what I've said so far that Nigerian students and, you know, would believe that the West was wealthier because they had magic. They weren't sharing. Well, yeah, and

Simone Collins: that's, that's an external locus of control and there there's a few external

Malcolm Collins: lo it makes it incredibly hard to economic to think about how you can economically develop your own country if you misattribute why your country's in an economically challenging position.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, and especially if it's someone else's fault and out of your control, what are you gonna do?

Malcolm Collins: Well, it's not just, what are you gonna do, it's. What you would do. Okay? I want my country to be stronger. I need to find out the magic that they have that we don't have. All right? So even if you decide to take action, it's really not gonna work out for you.

It's not gonna work out for you, right? Yes. Yeah. Before we get to the core piece, let's keep going through some other examples here. Okay? In April, 2025, CBS and a FP and amnesty reported on hundreds of mostly older or disabled Ghanaian women who have been physically attacked, sometimes burned or stoned after being accused of witchcraft.

Keep in mind, this was in 2025.

Whoa, many

vanished to witch camps as the only means of survival. Witch camps, even though gone is. Yes. And this is even though Ghana's Barla passed a bill in 2023 making witchcraft accusations illegal. It hasn't been enacted yet, so daily abuse continues. Okay, hold

Simone Collins: on. Do you know anything like, is, is a witch camp a safe space for witches or is this like a concentration camp for people who've been accused of witchcraft?

Malcolm Collins: Let's talk about one ga bagga located in Ghana's Northeast region now houses around a hundred banished women in about 25 huts. So keep in mind how many women that is for per hut. A Yik. A lot. Yikes.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Not, not great. Many

Malcolm Collins: are widows, longtime residents of towns and cities, often known in urban areas.

They include educated women suffering Alzheimer's or dementia, whose medical symptoms are misinterpreted by families and neighbors as witchcraft. Oh, so this is almost like

Simone Collins: vulnerable women. This is not good. It's so

Malcolm Collins: sad, right? Like old ladies who get Alzheimer's and then are sent to like, concentrate, but it's, they.

Culture's version of like, it, it an asylum almost combined with like actual you know, dangerous individuals or whatever, right? Yeah. You know, this really sad situation that we're seeing here in 2024, the Guardian highlighted that many people with dementia across Nigeria. So keep in mind this isn't just.

There are branded as witches across Nigeria. People living with dementia are often accused of witchcraft symptoms such as forgetting basic details and changes in behavior are seen as evidence of evil. People have been set on Firestone, beaten to death or buried. Buried alive. Oh, often they target the elderly.

Urban or educated individuals who erratic behavior or memory loss was blamed on evil curses. That is really sad. Although the most documented cases occur in rural areas, witch hunts in Molly often involve educated villagers. A notable case described a married couple accused of causing illness via witchcraft, promoting villagers to call in a witch finder.

Although they lived in a mixed community, modern education and income did little to shield them from the collective and subsequent panic. So now we're gonna go into a Forbes article titled we're just gonna do a short excerpt from it. Magic Spells and Money. A local television station in Kenya recently ran a series on witch doctors at a witch doctor shrine on the outskirts of Nairobi.

Expensive cars drove in and out. Politicians were looking to bewi their electorate. And contractors were looking for charms to win huge tenders All over Africa, people battle remotely by using charms. The affluent worried about losing their wealth or seeking to suppress rivals will pay a fortune for protection from their enemies to improve their luck.

This which doctor was clearly not the kind found in villages who paid in animals and food. So it's little wonder that he owns a huge compound in an area that the middle class would need some magic to afford. Politicians are some of the biggest consumers of black magic. Some pay $10,000 per visit with elections on the horizon in a good number of African countries, magicians in which doctors are looking forward to even bigger boom in their business.

At Kenya's latest polls, presidential contenders were rumored to fly out to visit the most potent witch doctors south of the country. A few research survey conducted in 2010 showed that a quarter of Kenyans believe in witchcraft. Despite being deeply religious, Kenya is ranked as the 11 most religious nation in Africa and sixteenths in the world.

78% of Kenyans are Christian and 10% are Muslim. Close to nine out of 10 people stated that religion played an important role in their lives. But most of them forget the Bible or the Koran. Soon after worship and seek Sol Enshrines and Witch Doctor Dens. According to the report, a quarter of Kenyan's, Bo Christian and Muslim confessed that they believe in the protective power of Juju charms and alet and that they consult traditional healers.

Simone Collins: This reminds me, I mean, it doesn't surprise me that you can both be Christian or Muslim and then also believe in these things because it was such a thing. That I saw in Japan like. You could have these two belief systems like Shinto and Buddhism live right next to each other. And it's like, well, okay, of course, like if you have a baby or it's this holiday of the year, you go to your Shinto shrine.

If someone dies, you go to the Buddhist temple. Like there were just, there was a time and a place, it was very context based and people, I mean they're very familiar with switching their everything about their identities based on their context, whether they're at work or home or with a. A friend versus their kids.

Malcolm Collins: And I think that what we're seeing here, and we'll get into this more, but it's this ability to externalize failures to supernatural forces or externalize wind to supernatural forces that makes it harder for a region to economically develop. And the more normalize this is, the more difficulty you're going to have in.

Now, I'm not saying this is the only reason, Africa has a lot of reasons having trouble with economic development, but I'm saying this is a contributory reason that people just don't talk about because it.

Simone Collins: Well, yeah, I mean, I think the important thing too, yeah, we're not critiquing them for believing in witchcraft.

We're critiquing them for having an external locus of control. I don't care if you believe in it, if like for some reason it, it helps you take personal responsibility for things in a way that's connected with reality. I. Meaning you can actually solve problems. But this is not that.

Malcolm Collins: But I'd argue we even see this in the West, if you look Oh, yeah.

At, you know, Catholic countries, which are more likely to have, you know, healing shrines. They're more likely to have saint worship. They're more likely to have a lot of the sort of Christian magic, I guess I'd call it. Oh.

They are dramatically less economically developed than the Protestant countries that strictly banned a lot of this stuff a long time ago.

Mm-hmm. Even, even in environments where they probably should be much more economically developed. And I think that this is probably the core or one of the core reasons why Catholicism leads to such slow economic development is because of the tendency. And the of, of the Catholic church to incorporate local mystical traditions and shrines and stuff like that.

Yeah,

Simone Collins: it's, it's the mysticism,

Malcolm Collins: and I note here that this is actually way more of a problem for Catholic communities in Catholic majority countries than it is in historically Catholic countries, than it is for Catholic communities in the United States. Like if I engage with Catholics in the United States, I, I don't see them going to like healing shrines or, you know, yeah.

They're,

Simone Collins: they're not praying to statues of saints.

Malcolm Collins: But if I go to Catholic communities in, say Mexico or Latin America this is something you'll see very frequent. Oh, this, this is where you go to put this on you to heal you. No, yeah.

Simone Collins: You can't walk down the street without passing a Catholic state statue that people are actively praying in front of.

If you're riding in an Uber or a taxi, you know, half the time you're going to see. The driver crossed themself at every stoplight. Like Yeah, it's, it's, it's deep there.

Malcolm Collins: And so I'm, I'm saying this isn't me picking on Africa, it's just that in Africa, these beliefs are more developed. Mm. And it, and, and it leads to the, the negative externalities that are associated with these beliefs.

But more on that in a second. Okay. We're gonna go to another P piece here. And this is why an aid worker who was very surprised what he found when he went to Africa. In a piece he titled Malice and Mally, a Case Study in Modern Witchcraft Accusations. And I'm just jumping around this piece, so we're only gonna get a short segment in front.

I asked how common the attacks were here in Cara witchcraft. Accusation cases are rampant. Magar told me maybe every day you see these conflicts where someone is accused of witchcraft. He said it is very common, especially in the Cara and ship tug districts in Mauis northern region. I was shocked. I'd expected maybe a case every month or two, though outright violence against police officers is rarer than witchcraft.

Accusations, there is both a latent and explicit hostility towards police. Many accused witch cases remain unreported, and when police are summoned, often the villagers don't trust or don't understand why. They see it as an internal dispute that should be handled within the village, and they often will attack police believing that they're cited with witches.

The social dynamics of witchcraft accusations are complex and much more so in the context of rural Mellon society and tribal alliances. When I asked why the village chief had been unable to protect the accused witches. Wonderful. Explained another nuance. Chiefs do have some power and authority in rural villages, but their position is tenuous and fraught.

They risk losing status if they are perceived as protected. Witches too much like police officers, they much walk a fine line. A village chief who consistently and strongly condemns mob justice against acute riches, runs the real risk of being replaced by another chief who has no such qualms about similar justice in this case and in many others.

The chief navigates this by appealing to the law, insisting it's a criminal matter. In seeking police intervention, there is an office that is supposed to handle these sorts of issues. The District Peace committee, but wonderful was not optimistic. Like the police, they're often understaffed and underfunded.

The situation is complicated by the fluid and sometimes interchangeable roles of healers in witch finders in Africa. After all the afflicted or neighbors believe. Then a given injury or illness is magical. Instead of biological and origin, they will seek a. A remedy in imagining evil witchcraft, beliefs and accusations in contemporary Africa.

Catholic priest, Hugo Fer notes that neighboring Zambia in the northern provinces. Most districts are regularly visited by sh NGAs, healers and herbalists through professional organizations. They have certificates that indicates the cures in which they are known and specialized. A good number of them are inclined to go beyond the well-defined limits of their profession.

It appeared that 60% of the herbalists. We're prepared to exceed the limits of their professional competence due to pressures from their client who not only asks them to diagnose and heal, but also to indicate through divination who had caused the particular disease ailment.

Simone Collins: Oh no. Oh,

Malcolm Collins: this led to the wish hunting.

So this is 60% when they go in the herbalist or like, okay, and this is who you should hurt for this illness. You have, oh

Simone Collins: gosh. This is so similar. I've, I've been listening to some podcasts. The, I've been listening to the Texty podcast which goes over some old texts and she, she does a couple of podcast episodes on like, which trial?

Texts like court court records, and it's so similar to like the Gorny Witch witch trials and other witch trial texts. Yeah. You know, it's like, well, this person got me sick. This person caused me to miscarriage, me miscarry. This person caused my horse to die. And it's so interesting how this appears to be.

A very instinctual human reaction. If something bad happens to you,

Malcolm Collins: whose fault is it? Yeah. Who

Simone Collins: did it? Yeah. Like, well, clearly my neighbor, like there were there instances in these records where like, this woman, you know, like had had a conflict with this neighbor a long time ago, and then the neighbor's horse died and the neighbor's like.

I knew it was her.

Malcolm Collins: So, Simone I'm gonna, I'm gonna do you a favor here. You can take out your headphones for a second and I'll let you know when you can put them back in. Thank

Simone Collins: you. You just wave your hand at me. Okay.

Malcolm Collins: So now we're gonna talk about spirit children in Ghana and traditional beliefs in northern Ghana. See the disabled or chronically ill infants as spirit children, CHIO or Cano who are born to bring misfortune, villagers sometimes kill or attempt to exercise these babies rituals seen as necessary to protect the family.

And you might be like, how rare is this? Well, despite Ghana criminalizing the practice in 2013 such practices have been linked to, infant deaths at the rate of 22 to 27%, and this is from Wikipedia.

Simone Collins: Whatever you shielded me from, I'm assuming it was young people getting hurt. I am.

Malcolm Collins: Yep. So we're, we're not gonna talk about

Simone Collins: that. Nope. Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Shocking rates there though. So now we're gonna go into the main piece, which I found so interesting and brought me to this, which is the por piece, how belief in which Crest holds the Africa back.

But I wanted to start you as a framing so you understand this isn't some crazy racist or something like that. Right. This is, this

Simone Collins: is pervasive and it, I mean, it's, especially because it's even something that you and I saw in the township. Yeah. When I was in Africa, I

Malcolm Collins: remember flyers for like, which, which doctors you could hire and stuff like that.

Like on the streets.

Simone Collins: Yeah. 'cause I otherwise would, I really wouldn't have believed it. So we've also seen it in person. But yeah, these, these ample examples also demonstrate that this is hardly isolated, which is Well, and our God. And what you, you're revealing to me, which is really surprising, is how pervasive this is, at least in some countries among educated groups, which totally shocks me.

Malcolm Collins: And, and our guide, I remember he was telling us a story that had happened not long ago in the region, so it was like really vivid for him of some people who got in a shootout with police and were like very aggressive with stealing from the local area. And it was because a witch had told them he had made them invulnerable to bullets.

Yes. And then he. Had not of course. And this did not turn out well for them. And, and again with this, I'm always reminded of the traditionalist Christians where I'm like, your kids are at serious risk of the urban monoculture, deconvert them and turning them against you. And they're like, no, no, no.

Don't worry. I have practiced Christianity in the way my ancestors did, and I taught my kids the way my grandparents did, and so they're safe. And I'm like. They are not safe. Nope. You, you are dealing with guns and you are using witchcraft. You need to build stronger methods because your kids will be castrated and let off in triumphs.

I guarantee it if you go, if you send them with this magical armor on. So that, I think that's always important for all of us to be aware of, is to not coat our own children in the magical armor. Of our ancestors, or they will get in a shootout with police believing they're in vulnerable to bullets. But anyway, to continue here, one of the most significant ways belief in witchcraft hinders development is by discouraging entrepreneurship and wealth creation.

In many African societies, individuals fear that economic success will bring trouble.

As those who accumulate wealth are often accused of using witchcraft to prosper at the expense of their peers. Unsurprisingly, this fosters an environment where capable individuals deliberately a, a shoe success as to evade accusations of sorcery. And here they are citing a study relationship between social status and witchcraft in Africa by Christopher or Guha or something.

Simone Collins: Oh my

Malcolm Collins: indeed. A study of rural tiv communities in Niger by Nur Samba and Dao Uba confirmed the fear of the supernatural retribution discourages individuals from engaging in business. It also found that wealthy individuals sometimes go to great links to conceal their financial status. The better to avoid being labeled as witches.

Mm-hmm. This has serious consequences when people refrain from entrepreneurship at a. Fear societies are deprived of opportunity for development. So again, you see this isn't just me saying, oh, they have these backwards beliefs and this is hurting, and this is documented by African peer reviewed publications.

William Darley and Charles Blankson also found evidence that superstitious beliefs suppress productivity, productive behavior in Africa. Many aspiring business owners actually worry that envious individuals would use witchcraft to destroy their ventures. Such worries act as a psychological barrier, discouraging risk taking and innovation.

The entrepreneurial spirit is replaced by fatalism, leaving economic potential untapped. And so this is a piece titled Sub-Saharan African Cultural Belief Systems and Entrepreneurial Activities. Again, in Perspective, that came out in 2020. Again, this is not somebody's perspective. These are a bunch of African researchers who are writing this.

What's more, people are less likely to be held accountable under these conditions because failures can be blamed on external vices. The fear of witchcraft can be so powerful that entrepreneurs. Choose not to expand their business, hoping to sort the plans of suspected witches. A study in Cameroon documented that entrepreneurs not only reject managerial solutions to business challenges, but frequently attribute those challenges to supernatural fores, including ancestral spirits and witchcraft.

And this study was another determinant of entrepreneurship, the belief in witchcraft and entrepreneurship. To continue even the financial sector is not immune to the influence of superstition. Ene Sen has documented that some Nigerians engage in ritual deface of currency notes, believing it will ward off evil powers.

The problem is so egregious that it accounts for practically all of the deface of nara. Others avoid using bank services altogether because they suspect that their money will be manipulated through supernatural needs. It is not only costly for the central bank to replace disfigured notes, irrational behavior undermines the functioning of a modern financial institution.

In sty mean's integration with the global economy. Witchcraft beliefs also distort governance by reinforcing authoritarian leadership. In many African countries, political figures exploit these beliefs to consolidate power, silence, opposition, and maintain social control.

In a recent study, Johanna Addison and colleagues examined how leaders use narratives surrounding witchcraft to justify their rule. Leaders of enclave supernatural. Protection or accuse rivals of engaging in sorcery instead of evidence-based policymaking, they rely on mysticism, mysticism to legitimize their authority.

Mm-hmm. South Africa's former president, Jacob Zuma, was known for exploiting the deep-seated reverence for ancestor worship to manipulate Vs into supporting his policies. And this was cited a piece here. Zuma vote A and C are faced ancestral west. Wrath. And then the study that was talked about here was power politics in the supernatural, exploring the world of witchcraft, believed in government for development.

Superstition is particularly visible in electoral politics where supernatural interventions are frequently invoked. For political outcomes. When a politician loses an election, it is not uncommon for their supporters to blame the loss on witchcraft rather than ineffective campaigning or voter dissatisfaction.

This erodes trust in the democratic process and elevates conspiracy theories over rational judgment. And, and talk about the level of like externalizing you get from this when political losses are blamed on wishes.

A belief in witchcraft also fosters corruption in government. Public officials who believe in supernatural forces may prioritize rituals and magic over accountability and transparency. Some even divert state resources to traditional healers or spiritualists, rather than investing in infrastructure or social programs at the local level, accusations of witchcraft are a major source of violence.

And here it is linking to a study by Suffolk University Law, the problem of witchcraft and violence in Africa. And the victims are usually women, young children or marginalized members of the community. An individual accused of witchcraft may be ostracized, attacked, or even brutally killed. Such acts obviously erode trust and weakened social bonds, making it difficult for people to cooperate and build a civil society.

And again, if you, if, if nothing's ever anyone's fault, if a politician can lose and it's witches or a politician can win and it's witches, it's hard to attempt to learn from things. Yeah, so same with like entrepreneurship. If. Who's successful. It's not like I need to look at who's successful so that I can study what they did that made them successful.

It's, oh, I look at who's successful, but they got there because of witches. Therefore, nothing that they did is particularly useful to learn to copy from. Yeah. Or their

Simone Collins: lesson was, I just didn't spend enough money at the, like with the magician or, or which doctor or whatever. It's that I, you know, like my, my, my opponent spent more so his spells were better.

Like I, I mean, I think even if you use magic. I guess the assumption is that the other side had better magic and then you just don't, again, you don't learn anything. I don't know if our own elections are, I mean, I guess you can. I. But I mean, I, I think often our own elections are pretty poorly analyzed as well, because they're like, well, the other side just raised more money and did more ad spend.

But I don't know how effective

Malcolm Collins: No. Look at Democrats right now, like even as corrupt and bad as the party is, and as dumb as they are, they realize they need to learn to win the mail vote. Right? Like, they're like, how do we get young men to vote? Democrat? Let's, yeah, they've

Simone Collins: admit that they've lost. The mail vote.

Yeah. But

Malcolm Collins: fortunately they give it to their version of witches, which is like statisticians and analysts. They give them $20 million and they come back and say, we need more boots on the ball kicking machine. I love their Freedom Tomb skit on this particular topic.

Speaker 2: All right, so let me go through some of our positions and you stop me where you feel uncomfortable. A higher minimum wage healthcare reform.

The ball kicking machine, right? Social safety nets. Wait, could you repeat that last one? Sure. Uh, social safety nets before that. Hmm. Oh, the ball kicking machine. I don't like the ball kicking machine. Not a fan either. Yeah. I don't like that at all. Oh, the machine we want in your house to kick your balls all the time.

Yes. No, that can't be it.

Okay, so what does our $20 million study show?

Speaker: The machine needs more boats.

Malcolm Collins: That is that, that the, the, the, the, I can't believe that they built a commission to try to find out why young men aren't voting for them, and they put a woman in charge of it and it's like.

Could that be, why could that be, why could that have anything to do with it if your systemic discrimination against men? But anyway,

Simone Collins: yeah.

Malcolm Collins: The harmful impact of witchcraft, of belief extends beyond business and government to the domain of public health. Misconceptions about the causes of different diseases and how to treat them are widespread in Africa.

This is particularly true when it comes to HIV slash aids. Ammar l Kasari and Amir Bava studied alese people's beliefs about HIV. Revealing that many women believe the in affliction is caused by witchcraft as opposed to sexual intercourse with an infected person.

As a consequence, such women do not take protective measures like using condoms or getting tested and the disease continues to spread and this can be very damaging economically to have these sorts of diseases spread within a region. In a similar study, Eric Te in colleagues examined how superstition impedes HIV prevention efforts in Ghana.

Owing to entrenched beliefs that infectious diseases are caused by witches, many people refuse to. Yeah. I wonder how much

Simone Collins: we would need PEPFAR if yeah. Instead we, we invested in anti witch, but that can't come from outsiders. It has to come from within.

Malcolm Collins: . I

Simone Collins: was referring to the, the like for people in Africa talking about the

Malcolm Collins: other thing that we were talking about. Yeah.

Simone Collins: The USAID used to provide a lot of

Malcolm Collins: aid.

This is it where everyone is like, oh, USAID's no longer providing Africa.

Well, maybe convince. Them that it's not witches that are causing aids. Yeah, like I'm

Simone Collins: wondering how how many cases of HIV could have been prevented if instead this belief was targeted. But I also am well aware of the fact that you can't have an external party, especially a bunch of white

Malcolm Collins: people. No. A bunch of American like progressives came in.

They'd be like, you're 100% spreading. They'd be like, okay. So

Simone Collins: it's definitely the witchcraft. It's 100% the witchcraft. Yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Refuse to, so, so, I to in turn, she beliefs that infectious diseases are caused by witches. Many people refuse to believe that behavior makes a difference, and as such, do not take preventative measures.

Some turn to spiritual healers for cues rather than seeking medical treatment. And this is citing I. An article that is titled, I Visited a Traditional Healer because I felt I wasn't getting any better using active antivirals, understanding the cultural imperative in the context of adherence to highly active antiretroviral therapy.

I. This is a public health journal and, and such healers claim to possess supernatural abilities that can cure aids, convincing patients to abandon retroviral therapy. Aside from reinforcing irrational beliefs, this puts additional strain on the public healthcare system. Perhaps the most horrifying consequences of the superstition is, and you probably wanna take off your headphones again.

Simone Collins: Thank you.

Malcolm Collins: The abuse of children. In some African cultures, those born with disabilities are considered spirit children, as we talked about before, and are thought to bring misfortune on their families. Emmanuel Asal has documented how children suspected of being possessed are sometimes poisoned, drowned, or simply abandoned.

Despite effort to curve these practices, they persist due to deeply ingrained beliefs. Mu Aki studied the phenomenon of child witch hunts in Ghana where children are accused of witchcraft and tortured or exiled from their communities. Tragically, it is. Orphans and those from impoverished backgrounds who are the most likely to be accused.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Thanks, by the way. Yeah. You're so sweet. I know we don't believe in trigger warnings, but like also I I your trigger

Malcolm Collins: war, she gets very sad when she hears about children being hurt, destroyed

Simone Collins: by it. Yeah. I just need to pretend that it never happens. It never happens. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: But I found this really fascinating because I had assumed.

That, you know, even having, you know, been to Africa, been, you know, to the, the townships saw the witchcraft being practiced at the townships. I never really put together, and I mean, we saw it, we went to, yeah, but we also, it wasn't in a

Simone Collins: wealthy area, so I think we were like, well, I guess this is common among people who don't have high levels of education or who all aren't.

Malcolm Collins: But when I think about myself growing up, so, I lived in Costa Rica on a. A reservation for a period where there was like a wildlife reservation, right? And this is when I was in high school. Because, you know, I didn't live with my family in high school. So many people know I lived in a lot of weird places.

And one of them, oh, you know, I reached out to a scientist and I was like, Hey, can I help you with your work? It looks pretty interesting. They're like, yeah, come on, come out here. So I went and I helped do, do science in Costa Rica. And so, you know, I got to meet a lot of other people who did science in the region and many of them had been stationed in other places and.

I remember one of them who had been stationed in Africa talked to me about how one of the you know, people he worked with in some capacity. I can't remember the capacity exactly, but it was clear that this was an educated, high status individual. Okay. Wasn't just like a believer in witchcraft, but considered himself a dark witch from a family of dark witches.

Oh. And they did really. And, and, and in Africa this happens. You have murders associated with witches. Not infrequently. You have grapes associated with, with witchcraft, not infrequently. This, this is something that, you know, I, I remember the stories he told me and I thought he was embellishing to sound cool or something.

And now I look back and I'm like, oh, he might have really known a guy who had people murdered for you know, witchcraft reasons. That's pretty crazy to think about.

Simone Collins: That is pretty crazy to think about. And then you have the weird witchcraft that's practiced in the United States where people buy spells on Etsy.

So I don't know.

Malcolm Collins: I can only imagine them going to one of these African witches. That's when you're getting in the real stuff. And it's crazy how Christian these countries are as well. And yet they still engage with this stuff.

Simone Collins: Yeah, I don't, I mean, it's. It's really clear to me that adhering to one religion, unless that religion is really explicit about other religions, although Christianity is this whole thing of like false idols and stuff, I, what do you do is a religion to stop people from, well,

Malcolm Collins: Christianity is spare, not a witch to live.

You know, it's, it's very clear like do not, do not engage.

Simone Collins: How do you square that?

Malcolm Collins: It's

Simone Collins: just.

Malcolm Collins: Well, they say, well, I'm a good witch, you know, I'm aligned with Jesus or something. Right. You know, a lot of people, they, they don't know their Bibles that much, and it is local tradition. It is their local culture. I mean, what you are asking is the eradication of a local cultural practice which is a form of cultural imperialism.

Right. But what I'm trying to point out here is if they do not. Address this cultural practice, economic development, even if all other things have been fixed, becomes incredibly difficult.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. And this, this makes me a little bit nervous about the secular religions that are rising. In the United States and not just the secular religions?

Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, yeah. I mean, 'cause you would argue that you know, charisma, charismatic Christianity, Christianity is a form of witchcraft.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I would, we have a long episode where she argues that, that we may do for our Patreon subscribers, because I don't wanna piss off too many things and sub stuck.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Any, any paid subscriber. Yeah. You're just, I, I guess that's fair because charismatic Christianity is the fastest growing type of Christianity in the United States. So. We're gonna get in trouble for me calling them all witches.

Malcolm Collins: But, but, you know, evidence, but they're

Simone Collins: witches, so, I mean,

Malcolm Collins: it is what we would call witchcraft was in most other contexts,

Simone Collins: dude.

Yes. Hello?

Malcolm Collins: They're just like, but I'm doing it for Jesus so it doesn't count. And it's like, well, no, I don't know if that's how it works.

Simone Collins: No.

Malcolm Collins: Mm-hmm. If you're doing things that we historically considered witchcraft and that were. Within the case of charismatic Christianity, some case directly borrowed from the Spiritualist and Wiccan movement and not traditionally Christian.

And they don't realize that they took these practices from the Wiccan and Spiritualist movement. They think that they're unique. And I'm like, no, no, this came from the spiritualist boom in the 1920s. It's just,

Simone Collins: it feels like such a classic biblical, like it's the biblical version of my cas. Like, it just, it just is this theme that constantly comes up of like, God.

To humans. Hey, like, stay focused. Just me. Okay. No, no. False gods stick to the, stick to the plan. And then humans are like, no, but can I have a golden cast? I can't.

Malcolm Collins: Can I pray to some dead humans?

Simone Collins: Just

Malcolm Collins: one. As a way to pray to you, as a way to pray to you. You know, yeah. It's

Simone Collins: really all about you,

Malcolm Collins: but I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm buying this spell.

For you, for you of course, to cast on these other people, you know? But I, I understand how it can become corrupted. It's just sad. And I wonder, I have seen actually some people one of my friends of African descent has actually found a way to take these concepts and, and make them psychologically useful to him.

Simone Collins: No, and I think a lot of people have, have taken folk practices, so. Tarot, for example, has become super popular among Yeah, so

Malcolm Collins: this, this is one of my friends, he's not a, a direct African descent. He picked up the religious traditions of I wanna say one of the Caribbean cultural groups, I think Puerto Rican.

And you know, they have, you know, iterations of these practices was in these cultures often. And one of them that he, he picked up was when he is struggling to make a decision about something, he rolls a like 10 sided dice that has spiritual significance for him and based on the number, he makes a decision and he finds that because of this, he's much more likely to go out to gatherings than he otherwise would be.

'cause he is often like, I don't really know if I want to go out. And then the roll of the dice leads him to going out much more than he would otherwise. Which I find to be really powerful because he knows he still has like an out, he's leaning on a traditional cultural practice, but he's not using it to, you know, blame his failures on successes or externalities.

He's using it as a tool to get himself to do the types of things that he would prefer not to do more frequently while still giving himself an out and still being able to, yeah.

Simone Collins: Again, yeah, we're not hating on witchcraft. We're hating on practices that lead people to be less productive, but you can absolutely.

Leverage these things in a way that do make you more productive. I think it's just the average person, just like we are with mysticism, right? Like there are some people who can absolutely handle more mystical things. Like some people can handle the Kabbalah, most people can't, like you, you, you know, I, I in general would advise against it.

But. I would say, especially if it gives you an internal locus of control that leads to your problem solving process that tracks with science and physics. Yeah, I guess that's the problem is like some forms of witchcraft can lead to an ex internal locus of control, but it's like, well, my internal locus of control is to cast a spell and like that doesn't track with good

outcomes.

So, but that is, that is crazy. I mean, well, what, what do you think is gonna happen to Africa then? Are they gonna get over it?

Malcolm Collins: Demographic collapse is gonna come to Western countries and it's gonna collapse aid networks. And as I've said, you can watch our video where we do a deep dive on what I think will have in Africa.

Africa might be one of the places that actually does quite well coming outta demographic collapse.

Simone Collins: Right.

Malcolm Collins: But it is, it is going to look like specific cultures and ethnic groups and tribes doing really well. Mm-hmm. And not all of Africa doing well. It is going to come downstream of the atomization of Africa and the admission of what the.

Colonialists should have admitted long ago, which is Graph Africa is about tribal networks, and it's not about, you know, sort of, collectivism. These, these attempts to Collectivize Africa seem to always lead to, to genocide and tragedy because Africa is not a collective place. It is a network of, of, of tribal associations and, and cultural and ethnic groups that are much more distinct from each other than we are as, as I often point out.

If you take any two ethnic groups within Africa and you contrast them genetically speaking, they are almost always dramatically more, and I mean like three or four times more distant from each other than you know, your average European is from your average. A. Asian or Native American. They're, they're just the amount of genetic and, and as a result, cultural diversity in Africa is just hugely understated, was in the existing narrative.

As I say, if you, if you divided humanity into eight ethnic groups seven of them would be groups of Africans and one of them would include white people, Asians, native Americans. Huh. People, everyone else, middle Easterners everyone else based on genetic distance.

Simone Collins: That's of, that's so interesting.

It blew my mind when you first pointed that to me. It's like that can't possibly, but of course it makes sense when you actually look at like the, the, the time done into what of them

Malcolm Collins: might be Australian aboriginals as well, but that also, that doesn't really break from the wider narrative here.

Simone Collins: Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: they're, they're quite genetically distinct and, and make up a really unique immigrant wave. And there's a few other groups like that in the islands around there. It's not really the larger point still stands.

Simone Collins: Yeah, that is interesting, huh.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I love you, Simone. Did anything change about your, your world perspective?

Simone Collins: Yeah, I didn't know that educated populations in many African countries also held to these traditional witchcraft beliefs that. Really blows my mind, so yikes. But also, yeah, I, I have hope for many African groups because yeah, there's a lot of different ones and a lot of different approaches, and surely this witchcraft isn't completely pervasive and therefore the ones that either figure out how to use it in a productive fashion or who don't use it will be fine over the long run.

And I'm, I worry more for where we're going because I feel like we're adopting witchcraft and external locus of control, associated religious affiliation, secular, and otherwise at a faster pace than we have since the very inception we,

Malcolm Collins: the United States.

Simone Collins: Yeah, we the United States since the, not our family.

Oh, yeah. Not our family. But since, since it's beginning. I, I

Malcolm Collins: disagree. I think the spiritualist boom of the 1920s was probably bigger, but, okay. Mm-hmm.

Simone Collins: Nope. No, because that also, you know, is taking place, you know, at a time of huge economic growth, at a time of I mean there, there was a surge of it, I mean, relatively speaking, but where we are now is, is, is wild.

Relatively speaking.

Malcolm Collins: Well, if you include charismatic Christianity among the witch cults which you do. Oh

Simone Collins: yeah. But also secularization no, like, so Pentecostalism only just was starting to get like in very isolated churches. It began, I think in the 1920s in California. It was only just warming up. And, and yes, there was spiritualism, but that was mostly among.

You know, like the weird elite, like it's kind of how rationalism is, is big today among certain circles, but most people have never heard of it before. I don't think it was as big as you think it was. And I, I think in the end we are, we are at a, a huge all time peak in mysticism, witchcraft. And in general, external locus of control associated worldviews.

And I will get into that. I have, I have an outline for that. We

Malcolm Collins: need, we need to bring in the inquisitors to, to, to handle the witches. I mean, to your point, I think they kind of handle themselves. All right. So Simone dinner tonight. We are doing the pork things. You made you, I guess in the air fryer or something.

The pork buns.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Try to make 'em nice and crispy and hot. Yeah, if you want I

Simone Collins: can, I can make, I think there are two and I think we can make sliders with them

Malcolm Collins: if you want. Well we got you. You said we got noodles.

Simone Collins: No, those are, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, they're like soggy and old now, like vermicelli noodles don't last very long.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. Well then reheat them and let's make sliders with them and chop up some what's the word I'm looking for here? Some like a scallion, like a small one.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Different on top. And I think that'll be pretty good, right?

Simone Collins: Yeah. Scallions two Hawaiian bun sliders of Bun Ma Sweet Pork. Tiny buns

Malcolm Collins: that'll, that'll go really well together.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Would you like like a Mao Dofu beef, Mao dofu taco as well? Or, or we can also make a slider with that. It so you don't like the sliders ma sliders. Then I'll just like give you a, an assortment of sliders and you like leftover sliders and you can decide which leftover slider. So we

Malcolm Collins: get two bun ma and one mafi dofu.

I, I don't like, want that much mafi dofu, you know, but the Mafi dofu slider sounds good.

Simone Collins: I mean it, just try 'cause it's leftover. I'm not gonna have four

Malcolm Collins: sliders. I don't want you to stuff me, you know what I mean? Three slide.

Simone Collins: Oh, God forbid. Okay, three sliders. I will do that. I love you so much.

Malcolm Collins: I love you too.

Simone Collins: 4th of July, tomorrow.

Malcolm Collins: Ooh,

Simone Collins: explode some explosives. What are we

Malcolm Collins: gonna, what are we gonna blow up

Simone Collins: the fireworks? Of course we're going to the family. Where are you? And then maybe when we get back, we blow something up or in the afternoon. Whatever. It's kind of up to you. 'cause you have the kids in the afternoon portion during the morning.

Mute them. Okay? You wanna check out? I'll call you when dinner's ready. Make sure your phone. There we go. You know, the really funny thing, actually, when I'm thinking about that really luxurious safari vacation and the like how much we learned actually on the luxurious safari at Mambo Camp in Mbo Plains versus how much we learned from that one afternoon touring the townships and, and like experiencing that.

We got so much more from that than like the entire, I mean, in terms of like novelty and learning and. Like talking with our guide about like, what is South African property ownership like, and you know, what's this like, what's up with this market that we're walking through with all this sympathetic magic going on?

Like, this is interesting. It was really like, that was quite interesting. That was

Malcolm Collins: in, I mean, we got to see like w we, you know, we've been to Africa, we've been not, not just to Africa, but to the slums in South Africa and, and gotten to the townships

Simone Collins: that we, we. I think your mom had gotten like some kind of social media influencer documentarian who like specialized in ex ex the townships and like he had a lot of like, I'm gonna not pronounce this correct, but like glossy friends and.

He was just like super connected. And so we went to visit a school in one of the townships. We visited a traditional market and

Malcolm Collins: medicine in the townships. And yeah, it was these just like people's houses that he was taking us to that were like these little like sh type things. Yeah. With like,

Simone Collins: no, no plumbing, no electricity.

And I mean, it was so, as you know, like it's really colored. The way that we look at how demographic collapse has played out because he really gave us a look at what you have in a society where government has sort of lost its ability to adequately provide for the social services it promises. You know, he is like, well, yeah, we promise housing to everyone here.

Like there's no property ownership. People are just promised a house, but therefore. People don't take care of their houses and there's not enough housing supply. Also, we have lots of brownouts and there's security problems and like we saw what that looks like and that is what demographic collapse after a dependency ratio cascade looks like.

And had we not driven around Johannesburg and the townships, and had we not seen that, we wouldn't have. At least for me, it wouldn't have hammered home what demographic collapse is going to feel like. 'cause seeing the contrast between that and then the walled gardens of Johannesburg and then other parts of Africa that are like incredibly wealthy and sheltered and like, you know, on their own, you know, out on the reservation.

Like to go from that to Mambo camp with it's it's canopies and the little hot water pillows they put in the bed at night.

Malcolm Collins: The hot water pillows. I don't remember. Do you remember that?

Simone Collins: It was cold at night. So then in the little canopy bed in our, in our cabin, oh, they had little

Malcolm Collins: bags. Yeah. They put

Simone Collins: like warmed hot water.

They're just like, what is, this is the, but that's the future. You're gonna have like the 0.001%. You know, on, on their little, you know, their walled gardens and their luxury things, you know, getting their hot water bottles in their bed. And then you're gonna have everyone else living with brownouts and blackouts in the townships, promised everything, given nothing.

Malcolm Collins: That's a really good point. And this is, you know, the way the Democrats do it. Promise, promise, promise, give nothing.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Well, because they can't,

Simone Collins: I mean, after demographic labs plays out, unless, and like you say, there's some dsx mocking it with ai and that's a big, if it's a huge if. I think what will happen more is independent communities that manage to leverage ai, to help with permaculture, to help with all sorts of things, manufacturing, et cetera.

AI will help those communities but it's not gonna be this benevolent overlord that steps in and takes care of everything and provides universal supply. We will see.

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