On this week’s episode of “The David Frum Show,” The Atlantic’s David Frum opens with his thoughts on the shocking alleged corruption that has informed President Donald Trump’s actions towards Ukraine and the scandal of the recently proposed “peace plan” by the United States. He goes on to discuss how the many scandals of the Trump presidency make it hard it to focus on just one, as it is quickly replaced in the news cycle by another.

Then David is joined by Jonathan Gruber, an economics professor of Economics and the chairman of the economics department at MIT. Gruber discusses the backlash he faced as a key architect of the Affordable Care Act and why the American health-care system still feels so broken. David and Gruber also talk about the war on both vaccines and science that is being waged by the conservative right.

Finally, David closes the episode with a discussion on They Thought They Were Free, by Milton Mayer, and what we can learn about teaching soldiers to commit crimes.

Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at TheAtlantic.com/Listener.

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