Professor Azar Gat, one of the world’s leading scholars of nationalism, war, and political identity.

Professor Gat is Professor Emeritus at Tel Aviv University and the author of several major works on conflict and political order, including War in Human Civilization and, most notably for this conversation, Nations: The Long History and Deep Roots of Political Ethnicity and Nationalism.

In that book — and in our discussion today — Gat challenges one of the most dominant assumptions of modern political thought: that nations are merely recent inventions, artificial constructs, or the superficial products of elite manipulation.

Instead, he argues that nationalism and political ethnicity have deep historical, cultural, and even evolutionary roots, stretching far beyond the modern era.

Together, we think out loud about:

why nationalism surged in the modern age — and why it did not begin there
the difference between ethnic and civic nationalism, and the vulnerabilities of each
how political ethnicity asserted itself in societies as diverse as ancient Egypt, Israel, China, medieval Europe, and early empires
why Europe developed into a distinctive patchwork of durable nation-states, rather than large civilisational blocs
Britain’s formation after Rome, the emergence of England, and how national identity and political ethnicity interacted across the British Isles
whether multicultural governance can override inherited ethnocultural bonds — or merely postpone their re-assertion
France as a revealing case of civic nationalism, and where its limits may lie
and why contemporary examples — from Iran to Europe — suggest that political ethnicity never truly disappears

This is an important conversation because debates about nationalism, identity, and belonging now sit at the centre of political life across Britain, Europe, and the wider West — yet they are often discussed without historical depth, clarity, or intellectual seriousness.

Professor Gat helps restore that depth, showing why these questions endure, and why they cannot simply be wished away by ideology or administrative design.

We close, as always on Thinking Class, with a personal reflection — asking Professor Gat what he has changed his mind about over the course of his life, and what led him to rethink his assumptions.

About Thinking Class:
Thinking Class is a long-form interview podcast exploring the cultural, historical, and moral forces shaping England, Britain, and the wider Western world.

Hosted by John Gillam, the show features serious conversations with historians, academics, and independent thinkers.

Thinking Class is concerned with discovering long-term patterns over headlines and hot-takes. Expect historically-grounded analysis on matters of national character, institutions, demography, belief, and political legitimacy.

New episodes every week.

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