James (Jamie) Kirchick is an author, columnist for Tablet magazine, historian, podcaster, and staunch believer in/defender of liberal values — and he’ll speak up against any party/group currently trampling on them. He began his journalism career writing about domestic and foreign politics; his first book, The End of Europe focused on the rise of populism in the continent (paid subscribers — stay tuned for some bonus content on this topic!). 

The first part of this conversation is all about Jamie’s second book, The Secret City, which explored the fascinating gay history of Washington D.C. and how the extreme homophobia of our country gave way, rather rapidly over the course of the 20th century, towards cultural acceptance and legal equality. The second half of this conversation we debate the pros and cons of the word “queer” and the “queer movement” — which Jamie discussed at length in his thought-provoking Liberties article “From Queer to Gay to Queer” (you can find a truncated version of his argument in his article for The Atlantic, “The Struggle for Gay Rights Is Over”). 

If you want to hear the preamble that precipitated this conversation, check out our episode with Eli Lake about art and offense. 

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On the agenda:

[0:00-12:31] Introducing Jamie

[12:32-38:22] Our history of homophobia

[38:23-44:27] Male homosexuality vs. Female

[44:28-49:09] The success of gay civil rights

[49:10-56:10] Revising history and coercing expression

[56:11-1:00:24] Assimilation vs. radicalism

[1:00:25-1:16:42] The excesses of the Queer liberation movement

[1:16:43-1:27:38] On pronouns and terminology

[1:27:39-1:37:49] Social contagion, gender nonconformity, and kids

[1:37:50-1:45:04] Political scandal and revolution

[1:45:05-1:48:40] Blindspots

Uncertain Things is hosted and produced by Adaam James Levin-Areddy and Vanessa M. Quirk. For more doomsday rumination, subscribe to: uncertain.substack.com.