Substrate and personhood debate

Séb questions computational functionalism; both discuss observations that would convince them an AI is a being.

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Emmett Shear and Séb Krier debate whether today’s AI alignment paradigm—focused on control and instruction-following—is fundamentally flawed. PSA for AI builders: Interested in alignment, governance, or AI safety? Learn more about the MATS Summer 2026 Fellowship and submit your name to be notified when applications open: https://matsprogram.org/s26-tcr. They explore what changes if advanced AIs are better understood as beings with their own values, and why current control methods could drift toward something like slavery. The conversation dives into “organic alignment,” multi-agent simulations, evolving cooperation, and the possibility of AI moral standing as systems gain memory and continual learning.

Sponsors:

MATS:

MATS is a fully funded 12-week research program pairing rising talent with top mentors in AI alignment, interpretability, security, and governance. Apply for the next cohort at https://matsprogram.org/s26-tcr

Tasklet:

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Agents of Scale:

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Shopify:

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CHAPTERS:

(00:00) About the Episode

(03:44) Defining organic AI alignment

(14:48) Technical vs value alignment (Part 1)

(19:55) Sponsors: MATS | Tasklet

(22:56) Technical vs value alignment (Part 2) (Part 1)

(31:34) Sponsors: Agents of Scale | Shopify

(34:21) Technical vs value alignment (Part 2) (Part 2)

(34:22) Labs, tools, and beings

(43:22) AI personhood and consciousness

(56:53) Safe futures and Softmax

(01:04:17) Chatbots, mirrors, simulations