So it's best reserved for those like complex wicked problems, perhaps the things that take you know, multiple perspectives or lots of unwinding in order to come out the other side with something. I want to circle back to what you said with starting with the outcome because one of my questions was going to be how would you approach constructing a workshop? You've identified that this is the opportunity for one. So what's the next step in approaching the construction?

What I think of the basic elements in the course, I give the comparison, I mentioned as key pillars. So it's like, again, going back to this definition of putting people together in a room, making them go through a series of exercises within a limited timeframe to achieve a specific outcome. Those are the four key pillars. So basically, the goal you want to achieve or the outcome you want to achieve, who should be involved. And then you have these two, which are the time you need for that and the exercises you include in that workshop. So this kind of relate to each other. It's not that you get one before the other. So it's like, you start with the outcome. If the outcome really needs people to come together and you really need to unblock this with the workshop, then you start. So you know, the goal, we should be involved. If you know where you start and where you want to go, you say, you need this type of exercise and you say, okay, we can wrap it up in two hours to put it in my

way. So again, working backwards and getting the general shape, especially around the drill and the preparation and the process of moving from start to finish. When you talk about the different exercises, I think another misconception may be thinking exercises are ice breakers. And an icebreaker can be an exercise and can be very powerful when used correctly, I believe. But what exercises are you referring to here? And maybe how would someone look at the variation between them and know maybe which ones to pull in for what types of workshops?

There are some layers inside this question. And so there will be some layers inside this answer. So first of all, about ice breakers, I'm a fan of Edward de Bono and all this lateral thinking and he has a lot of exercises. He says, like connect random words or like look at a newspaper and then try to connect that with your challenge and go on YouTube, watch a random video and try to connect what you saw with the actual challenge we're actually tackling. And that's another topic we can have an episode on Edward de Bono's work that can be applied to a consultation. It's absolutely brilliant. But yeah, then in terms of what kind of exercises, I think workshops also have a narrative, and they need to have this connecting thread. So the final picture is the outcome you wanted to achieve at the end. So you need to find the exercises that actually tackle that goal but actually go well with each other because this is all about people. So if people are going to be sitting together for two hours, you can really put one intense exercise after the other. So it's like you have to be mindful of that. There are a lot of framers today. You know, we have HS Smart Framework, you have Game Storming, you have Ideal. But basically I take it to a really basic level and I store exercises in two big categories. Opening exercises and closing exercises. With opening, I mean all the exercises that increase the number of ideas we have. And when you're closing, the one that reduces them. You know, for example, let's say we go for a ideation session. I mean, this is a pretty popular exercise on maybe listeners. It's not about these crazy aids. You know, when you draw ideas and you have like eight ideas in eight minutes, one idea per minute. So you have a lot of ideas then. And then if you pick one or if you vote on them, you reduce the number. Of course, you can go more granular if you have exercise to evaluate ideas. You have exercise to learn more about compromising or like saying, okay, this is, I know, who's taking this part of the work, who's doing this afterwards. But normally in the course, I try to keep it the basis of this is for more ideas, it's the for less ideas. That's how I keep it.