The Last Place of Erzia

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There is this kind of you know deep human psychology of competition right and that you would rather be poorer yourself as long as the people who you're in competition where for you want to feel superior to. The context of american racism helps to explain not just racial disparities between white and black Americanans but really the turn from a public goods oriented set of public policies, says David Frum. He argues that political actors there are self-interested elites who are setting up a system where being on the bottom of the social hierarchy is so miserable that anybody worth his salt would actually try to climb over his neighbor to get away from it.

Heather McGhee is an author and policy advocate with a focus on reducing inequality. She is Board Chair for the organization Color Of Change and a former CEO of the think tank Demos. McGhee is the author of The Sum of Us: What Racism Costs Everyone and How We Can Prosper Together .

In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and Heather McGhee discuss why progress for one ethnic group need not come at the expense of another; how racial animus has been used in the past to divide Americans who share fundamental interests; and whether the recent focus on "race-sensitive" public threatens to reignite zero-sum competition between different racial groups.

This transcript has been condensed and lightly edited for clarity.

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