Daniel: How do we transform the logics of private ownership into something radically alien to that? Brenna Bandar: There are many different historical examples and and many different practices of relating to things outside of a logic of individual ownership. Daniel: We can think about expropriation movements by housing activists in Berlin or whether that's thinking about how different you know first nations were from us. All of these ways of contending with the pitfalls of private ownership I think are are ones for us to work on and work towards well Brenna thank you very much thank you DanielThank youverymuch for this really thought-provoking set of questions and conversation, Brenna.