Introduction

It's time for your July Indulgence Gospel! Corinne is here. We’re getting into power lifting, sugar-y breakfast cereals, long hair rules and lots of fat swim talk.  

If you are already a paid subscriber, you’ll have this entire episode in your podcast feed and access to the entire transcript in your inbox and on the Burnt Toast Patreon.

If you are not a paid subscriber, you'll only get the first chunk. To hear the whole conversation or read the whole transcript, you'll need to become a paid Burnt Toast subscriber.

Also, don't forget to order Fat Talk: Parenting In the Age of Diet Culture! Get your signed copy now from Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the USA). You can also order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, Kobo or anywhere you like to buy books. (Or get the UK edition or the audiobook!) 

Disclaimer: Virginia and Corinne are humans with a lot of informed opinions. They are not nutritionists, therapists, doctors, or any kind of health care providers. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions they give are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith. Follow Virginia on Instagram or Twitter. Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing. The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe. Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell. Tommy Harron is our audio engineer. Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

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Virginia

You’re listening to Burnt Toast. This is the podcast about diet culture, anti fat bias parenting and health. I’m Virginia Sole-Smith I also write the Burnt Toast newsletter.

Corinne

And I’m Corinne Fay. I work on Burnt Toast and run @selltradeplus an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus sized clothing.

Virginia

It is time for your July Indulgence gospel. We have a whole bunch of your questions. I also have a really good hate mail to read and a really good butter.

Corinne

This is also a paywalled episode. That means to hear the whole thing, you’ll need to be a paid subscriber. It’s just $5 a month or $50 for the year.

Virginia

And a quick disclaimer as we are getting going here: We have a live studio audience today. My five year old is home because camp was closed because we have like crazy flooding in the Hudson Valley today. We are safe, we are just stuck at home. So she’s here. She is listening to Melon’s House Party which is a competing podcast she’s choosing to listen to right now.

Corinne

Probably superior. 

Virginia

There’s a talking couch, we don’t have that. So we may have a few interruptions and/or background noise because sometimes the episodes are very funny. 

Corinne

Oh, amazing. 

Virginia

But Corinne, you need to talk to us about weightlifting.

Corinne

Yes! So last weekend was my weightlifting meet, which I’ve been periodically talking about for months and months and months, it feels like. it went really well. I got second in my weight class and it was fun. It was really fun. 

I was so glad I had a coach guiding me through. And as a full adult approaching middle age if not fully middle aged, I just don’t have a lot of occasions in my life where I’m that nervous. I was like, Oh, I feel like I’m going to the airport. That’s what it feels like in my body right now. 

Virginia

Oh, I get that. I get that for sure. The only thing I have is when I do public speaking because there are so many logistics. It’s not even the actually getting up and doing the thing, but it’s the what are you wearing? What time do you have to be there? Will you be on time? Will something go wrong?

Corinne

And what if I get up there and I throw up or something?

The way it works is you do these three lifts: Squat, bench press, and deadlift. They do them in flights. So, I had to get there at 8 but I wasn’t going to be even doing my first lift until like 11:30. So I just had a few hours of am I going to start crying or vomiting? I felt really weird.

Virginia

So what did you do? Did you sit and watch other people and feel nervous?

Corinne

Yeah, I watched other people just to try and prepare myself, psych myself up. And I sat and looked at my phone, you know, just the stuff you do to try to calm yourself down. But you start warming up at a certain point, and as soon as I started warming up I just started pouring sweat.

Virginia

I mean, that seems appropriate.

Corinne

Yeah. I mean, I was exerting myself. But also I was like, Oh, I’m really nervous and I’m just dumping sweat. I think if I had to do it again, I feel like I should have like, eaten more in that time. 

Virginia

That makes sense.

Corinne

Because I was just so nervous. But it did end up just going really well even despite that.

Virginia

And you said “next time!”

Corinne

Yeah. Yeah, I would do it again.

Virginia

That was one of the most asked questions as we were gathering questions: How was the meet and will she do another one?

Corinne

Yeah, it was really fun. It was so cool to see other people doing the same thing. And there were definitely other fat bodies or larger bodies.

Virginia

That’s really powerful.

Corinne

And there was also a good audience. I had a bunch of friends come, my mom came.

Virginia

Oh, nice.

And you also had your fat pool party! I would like an update on that. 

Corinne

Yes, we did fat swim! It was really fun. My main complaint about it is that it wasn’t long enough. I could only rent the pool for two hours and two hours felt like I was just starting to get to know the people that I didn’t know. Maybe next time I would plan something for after. But yeah, it was really fun. And also a good reminder that even if you live somewhere where you feel like it’s small and like you know everyone, there’s always people you don’t know. 

Virginia

And there are people in your community who are probably so grateful that that happened and they could go to it. Do you know what I mean? We hear so often, how do I make that community? Or how do I find fat friends? This is a gift. 

Oh and I was going to ask about your swimsuit!

Corinne

Okay, so that photo is actually not from fat swim. It was just from being fat at a pool with a friend.

Virginia

It was technically fat swim.

Corinne

Yes. It’s a picture of me and my friend, I’m wearing a bright green swimsuit and she’s wearing a pink swimsuit. And both of the swimsuits are from Good American.1

Virginia

Oh, wow. 

Corinne

Which, I’m a little like sorry about the Kardashians, but they’re good.

Virginia

The colors are amazing! 

Corinne

Good colors. They’re a knockoff of that Youswim brand that has that kind of crinkly material which is so nice. But I feel like Good American’s sizing is better.2 They also have a ton of styles. I’m wearing a cami style top. There’s a more bra style there. There are just tons. There’s a dress thing, which we’ll talk about later.

Virginia

Talk to me about level of boob support, because this is my constant struggle with swimwear.

Corinne

I posted that photo on Instagram and I got a lot of people replying being like, “wow, these bottoms actually look high waisted!” and the bottoms are really high waisted. But for me, the problem is usually the top not the bottom. There’s no support beyond just the thing. But I will say, my friend in the photo, Robyn A. Frank, amazing painter, has really large breasts and seems to be comfortably wearing it. I wouldn’t mind an extra inch or two of length.

Virginia

Always! Just another inch or two! Would it be that hard? 

Corinne

I know. If you look at it, it almost like looks like I’m wearing a full like one piece. It almost overlaps. But I want the fabric to go under my boobs and not just over it.

Virginia

I always just want the neckline to come up a little bit higher. You don’t want every swimsuit to be a full cleavage experience.

Corinne

A little turtleneck!

Virginia

Or just like crewneck! I don’t know. 

Corinne

Yeah. We have more swim questions coming up, so maybe this is the wrong time to talk about it, but the other thing I’ve been discovering this summer is that I really like a long-sleeve swimsuit. You don’t have to wear sunscreen! 

Virginia

Well, we will get into that when we get to the swim questions. But I feel like you’re having such a fun summer with your meets and your pool parties. 

Corinne

It has been a good summer. How’s your summer going?

Virginia

I’m a little bit of a puddle today because we dropped my nine year old off at sleepaway camp yesterday for the first time. She’s gone for two weeks. I’m so excited for her. She is ready. She’s jazzed. She’s gonna have a great time. And I feel like I have a celebrity crush. I keep checking the website where they upload photos to see if there are any photos. It’s like just lunchtime on her first day. There are no photos yet. I’m like maybe they will post some breakfast pictures?

Corinne

Oh my gosh, this is so cute.

Virginia

I’m stalking my own child on the internet.

Corinne

I have so many questions about this. How far away is she? Does she have friends there?

Virginia

Yes, it’s about an hour and a half away. It’s in the Catskills and we picked it because my friend Melinda Wenner Moyer who writes Is My Kid the Asshole?, our daughters are really good friends. So her daughter is going and then another really good friend of theirs, whose mom is also our best friend. So we picked it to send the three girls together and they are in a cabin together.

And we got there in time. They all got top bunks. I mean, you talked about your pre-meet anxiety, my anxiety about whether we would realize this vision of three top bunks in the cabin. You don’t even know. Like the parent text threads about what time we should leave and do we have time to stop for lunch?

Corinne

Oh my gosh.

Virginia

Anyway, they all got top bunks. And I think they’re going to have a good time. But yeah, it’s big for me to have her be away for two weeks. But then fortunately, my younger child’s camp was closed today. And I have her right here in the room with me. So I am still very much with with a child.

Alright, we’re going to do some questions. 

Corinne

So here’s the first question.

I'd love some thoughts on the relationship between diet culture and table manners. My kids are 6 and 9 and my partner really struggles with mouth noises (just to set the... table for you) and I feel like table manners are still a major pain point at dinner time. I don't care so much about table manners in a formal sense because who among us knows what fork to use at a fancy restaurant. I mean issues more like kids eating so fast or so loud/smacky, scraping teeth on forks and spoons, etc. Also, despite our efforts to include them in meal planning, present a range of safe options at the table, my oldest will still grumble about the meal we've made, roll eyes, or act generally put out if it isn't one of the (VERY FEW) acceptable meals for her. Will this ever end?

Virginia

No. It won’t ever end. Well, it will end with all of our deaths. 

Corinne

Wow, really going there. Just to remind everyone out there, everything will end at some point.

Virginia

There is a sweet release. But I mean, bottom line, my kids are the same ages, almost six and almost ten. I’m right there with you. It has not ended for me yet. We are working through things like no feet on the table. We are working through things like sitting in your chair while chewing. The eating so fast, the mess, the scraping, all of this. We discovered the other day that we can make weird noises with straws. Like, it’s just never ending.  

Melinda has a great piece that she wrote about why table manners are not really age appropriate for kids a lot of the time. Of course, you are working towards this goal and you are modeling table manners yourself, hopefully. But we have to adjust some expectations about what what we will get out of them in terms of behavior at the table. 

She did a lot of really interesting reporting. A lot of it is that sitting at the dinner table requires a fair bit of core strengths and motor planning and coordination. If you think about it, just sitting upright in a chair and like moving your fork around and your plate around, and kids, especially at dinner, later in the day, they’re tired, they just don’t have it together in terms of coordinated physical movements at that point in the day. And when you think about how many adults would rather eat on their couch in front of the TV, I think that’s a relatable concept. I also lack core strength by 7pm. So that’s one big piece of it. 

I think the other big piece is if there is anxiety over what’s for dinner or that’s feeling high pressure in any way, then like you’re going to see the behavior, the manners, kind of go out the window as they’re responding to that. So it’s a good opportunity to check the other dynamics about what’s happening. But mostly, it’s just awful. And I’m sorry. And I’m there with you. That’s what I’ve got.

Corinne

Yeah, I was trying to think of strategies that parents could use to steel themselves for, like how annoying it is. Like, is it more annoying to you because you’re really tired and hungry? 

Virginia

Yeah, absolutely. 

Corinne

Could you have a snack or wear ear plugs? Is that so awful?

Virginia

I think those are both great ideas. I would also say, if there’s an adult who’s more triggered by the visual of how the kids eat, have that person not sit facing the children. Rethink your seating. Because what often happens is the parents start micromanaging how the kid is eating and then that just makes it all worse, right? You’re fussing at them to put their cup here or keeping syrup on the plate is a big one, all of this stuff. Finding ways to rearrange your seating a little bit, so you’re not having to look at it, is helpful. 

I think parents really overestimate how long kids will sit at the table. I think it’s really normal for kids until they’re pretty old, unless they are very food motivated children and it’s like their favorite meal, to not want to spend that long at dinner. A 15 minute meal is quite an accomplishment, honestly. So that can help. And we have a no feet on the table rule. Like that seems fine. I think that’s a reasonable boundary have.

Corinne

And when that comes up, you’re just reminding everyone that this rule exists.

Virginia

Just remind everyone that we have to take our feet off the table. But just know that you are going to be saying it forever.

It’s also because some of the customs don’t make any sense to kids, right? You’re trying to teach them this whole language that they don’t know. They don’t know why it bothers people. Kids aren’t grossed out by their own feet. So they don’t understand why that would be a problem. It is this very abstract thing you’re trying to explain. That’s all I got. It’s terrible.

I will read the next question. 

Yesterday my son (9) asked for Honey Nut Cheerios, but I generally buy regular Cheerios. My husband told him to add honey to his cereal and he thought that was pretty great. I did too. But the next day he asked why we can't just buy Honey Nut Cheerios. He said that having honey with cereal was the same as just buying Honey Nut Cheerios. I didn't have a good answer for him. I told him the truth is that I don't buy sugar cereals because my parents didn't buy sugar cereals except for treats. If I'm being honest, I also have in my head that starting off the day with too much sugar isn't good and will make him "crash" at school/ camp. When we are on vacation I let him choose any cereal he wants to keep at the grandparents' house, probably creating a scarcity situation for him. I bake and we have plenty of sugar items in the house, but somehow this is a food rule I can't get rid of and not sure if I should, because it seems so  unhealthy. Which I know is diet culture, but just can't get past it. How do I set food limits with my son when I can't even defend them!?! Is it ever ok to limit or restrict the types of food allowed?

Corinne

Well. Your son makes a pretty good point.

Corinne

Also is Honey Nut Cheerios even a sugary cereal?? Maybe this is not helpful.

Virginia

On a scale of sugary cereals, it’s a pretty low lift.

Corinne

I googled top sugary cereals after reading this question. The top one was called Smacks or something which I’m like, does that even exist? I don’t even know what that is. Captain Crunch was also up there.

Virginia

Classic. Yeah, Cocoa Puffs I would assume a classic.

Corinne

There were some Reese’s ones. 

Virginia

The bottom line is, there’s no reason to have a rule against honey nut cheerios. Putting honey on your Cheerios at home is the same. Why not just save yourself a step and some sticky mess and buy the honey nut cheerios.

Corinne

I’m also imagining that the way a nine year old puts honey on cereal might be putting more on the cereal than just buying honey nut cheerios. 

Virginia

I’m remembering the episode with Laura Thomas, PhD, RNutr, which is a great one to go back to for a more deep dive on this question. She talked aboutone piece of researchwhere they found that when people made at home versions of things, they actually often did sweeten them even more than the ultra processed version. So it’s entirely possible that your child drenching his Cheerios in honey is not is not the, quote, healthier choice. 

But I think the bottom line is, if this is a food he’s interested in trying, buy a box. Let him enjoy them. It may be a staple in your house for a while. It may be something he has and now that you’ve removed the scarcity around it, he moves off it pretty quickly. But there’s no need to have rules around like we don’t buy sugary cereal, that’s only guaranteeing that, as is happening, he’s going to be very interested in you buying sugary cereals.

Corinne

Yeah. What about the part about starting the day off with too much sugar?

Virginia

We know that the sugar high is a myth. Eating a lot of sugar doesn’t actually change your behavior. From a balanced nutrition perspective, it’s great to pair carbs with some fat and protein, so that it kind of all evens out and there’s not a quick burn and then a crash. If he puts milk in his Cheerios, you have achieved that goal. The great thing about cereal is that it kind of takes care of itself. 

And by crash, all we mean is that he’s hungry sooner, which is not a failure. You didn’t do anything wrong. Sometimes we eat something and then we need to eat again a little sooner than if we had eaten something else. This is a morally neutral experience. It’s just some foods, we get hungry again a little faster. And so you’re sending him off to school and snack is not for a few hours, you want to make sure he’s not going to be starving and grouchy before then. But the milk is going to manage that for you. Or if he doesn’t have milk, you could put some peanut butter on the side. Maybe he likes to dunk them in peanut butter or something else to round that out. 

I mean, my kids eat microwavable chocolate chip pancakes every day for breakfast and they also have our smoothie. So they’re getting some fat and protein. Everyone seems to survive until lunch. We have gone through phases. The Reese’s Peanut Butter puffball cereal was a really popular one in our house for a while. And then, as with all these things, they got bored with that and that’s of no interest these days.

Corinne

Well, I’m not a cereal eater, but sounds good.

Virginia

It’s also great for snacks or easy dinners. If you’re feeding kids, cereal is very, very useful to embrace because it can cover a lot of gaps for you.

Corinne

Good to know. 

All right, I love the next question.

Favorite frozen desserts? Right now, mine are frozen cherries, microwaved 60s, and rocky road! 

Virginia

Okay, I don’t know if microwaved 60s was a typo in this question. I would love to know what a microwave 60 is.

Corinne

Oh, I feel like it must be a typo. 

Virginia

Well, frozen cherries are amazing.

Corinne

That is something I’ve never tried. 

Virginia

I could see that being so good. And you could use them like ice cubes. I often put frozen strawberries as ice cubes in seltzer or something. That’s delightful. 

Corinne

I mean, my first one is soft serve. But it’s not a frozen treat that you could have in your house necessarily. 

Virginia

Couldn’t you do a blender version? I am less of a soft serve, more team hard ice cream. So that is a big one for me. 

I also just got a set of dinosaur popsicle molds. I was influenced by Amy Palanjian, as she is an influencer and also my best friend. So that is a common occurrence. I will link them. I’m very excited. Because many years ago before I even had kids, I found the rocket shaped popsicle molds. Do you know those?And I bought a ton of them because they were on sale and we were having a big party. I think I had like 36 and I made a whole bunch of popsicles. I’ve had these popsicle molds forever now, like over 10 years, and they’re great. They are long lasting, super easy to use. But the problem is they’re hard plastic. So when you’re trying to get the popsicle out afterwards, you have to run them under hot water. And it’s like a whole process. Especially now when I’m giving popsicles to kids, they’re like, is it ready? Is it ready? And you’re like, I’m just waiting for the tap water to warm up. But Amy just found these dinosaur molds and they’re silicone, so you can just pop out the popsicle. And I was like, well this is a game changer. So I’m very excited. I think Beatrix and I are going to make those this week since she’s an only child at the moment with the older one at camp.

Corinne

I also really like the frozen Snickers ice cream bar.

Virginia

Oh, my mother is obsessed with those. That’s her forever favorite dessert.

Corinne

I’m going to try frozen cherries. 

Virginia

Multipurpose. You can use it a lot of ways on yogurt. Good stuff. That is a fun question. 

Corinne

 I have been intrigued by the discussion on set point and believe I have arrived at mine. Despite that, I find myself wanting to check in with the scale at least 2x a week. That's WAY better than the 2x a day that I had been doing, especially while restricting calories. 

Those calorie restriction days are behind me but I still am drawn to the scale and stubbornly resistant to tossing the danged thing out. I know that's the standard advice and I know in my brain why I should. But I can't get myself over that line. Yes, twice a week is better than twice a day but I clearly am reluctant to go the whole way.

Virginia

Well, I will link to the piece I wrote where someone wrote in should I throw out my scale? And I think the whole response was yes. 

That said, I think there’s a harm reduction model here that this person is doing pretty well with and should be applauded for. Recognizing how toxic it is and stepping herself back. Twice a week is way better than twice a day.

Corinne

I was also just going to say, if you’re not ready to throw it away, maybe try moving it. Put it in the basement. See how that feels. Move it to different parts of the house where you’re not seeing it.

Virginia

Yeah, I think there’s a baby steps approach, like move it somewhere else in your house. What if you gave it to a friend to keep for a while? 

On a related note, I have a bag of clothes in my closet that belonged to a friend who was weight restoring in her eating disorder and had to get rid of a lot of stuff that was too small. And there were some favorite things that she was not ready to just be done with even though she doesn’t want to lose the weight. I was like, this bag can live in my closet. That is no problem. You will know they are safe.

So maybe your scale could move to a friend’s closet. I think it is really useful and validating for a lot of people to do a big dramatic smash the scale, throw it out. I’m here for that. But if that’s not you, that’s not you.

Corinne

There are also occasionally reasons why it’s helpful to have a scale, such as weighing your checked luggage or your dog or something. Like a scale can exist as a thing other than something that you use to torture yourself. 

Virginia

I’ll read the next one.

Hi, Virginia, and Corinne, Could you share some refreshers on handling routine doctor’s visits as an adult patient? I have anxiety about an upcoming annual check with a primary care physician to the point that I’ve rescheduled it multiple times because I don’t want to deal with being weighed at the doctor declining to be weighed and feeling I’m prepared to explain why in a succinct matter of fact way, without coming off as an uncooperative patient. Perfectionism slash diet culture much sigh. I am seeing a new provider in hopes that BMI is an indicator of health will not be focused on but want to be prepared with a response in case the doc starts going down that path. I am someone with a history of disordered eating, who has been deeply ingrained in diet culture for 20 plus years, and more recently actively trying to reject it. I’ve been making significant progress with this within the last year. But I’m worried that the weight related commentary from a health care provider could send me on a negative tailspin. Ive been raised to respect and treat doctors assessments as gospel, and it’s hard to wrap my head around potentially being at odds with a PCP When it comes to the importance of falling into the quote, normal BMI weight range. it would be great to have some go to responses in my back pocket to make me feel more prepared and at ease for this visit. I’m sure I’m overthinking this, but your perspectives and responses are always so encouraging and informative. Would love to hear what you think. 

Corinne, I would love to hear what you think on this one. 

Corinne

I will just say, you should go to the doctor. As someone with a history of disordered eating, it is actually the best thing for your health not to be weighed. You can tell the doctor that. If being weighed is causing so much anxiety for you that you’re avoiding the doctor, that’s a big problem. That’s also not good for your health. 

Virginia

That’s not health promoting. 

Corinne

I was really struck by this person saying how she’d been raised to respect and treat doctors’ assessments as gospel. I think it can be helpful to just remember that doctors are also people who have biases and are wrong about stuff all the time. You can approach the visit as more of a conversation or a dialogue.

Virginia

100%. I will link to the piece I wrote on scales and when it is useful to opt out and when it’s not.

I’ll also link to the excerpt of chapter five from the book which talks about provider healthcare provider bias, and really explores doctor diet culture, which I think helps take some of the the power away, like the reverence that we feel we need to give doctors. It just helps dial it down a notch when you realize, oh, they are just as susceptible to diet culture marketing. They are struggling with their own relationships with their bodies. They are working within the system that is hugely harmful.

The other thing I want to link to is the really great Friday thread we did that was inspired by a listener who is a doctor who asked us to talk about what helps at doctor’s appointments. What can healthcare providers do to be affirming for fat folks? I think reading through that thread will help you a lot because it’ll emphasize to you you’re not the only person who is requiring this.

Corinne

There are a lot of good resources online for stuff like this. I know Ragen Chastain has those little cards you can print off with stuff you can say to your doctor. Her Substack also has a post on strategies for dealing with routine weigh ins. There are definitely a lot of resources. 

Virginia

Yeah, we’ll pull some of that together. Ginny Jones also has cards. I would also suggest checking out Hilary Kinavey and Dana Sturtevant at Center for Body Trust. They work with healthcare providers on provider bias and doing all of this stuff, and have put out a lot of great resources about how to advocate for yourself with the doctor, so we will link to them too. 

Okay, so this person wrote:

Do you have any advice for dealing with uncomfortable and non-accommodating seating in theaters and public spaces? I’ve been to see a few shows this summer and the seats were beyond awful. Has it always been bad or is my perception just new?

And on a related note, I have decided I need better dining room chairs. I don’t think my dining room chairs are fat friendly enough. And so I want to know where I should be shopping for dining room chairs. 

Corinne

Okay, well, I do think that the theater public space seating has always been this bad, but I am not sure.

Virginia

I think it has always been this bad. Maybe this person is newly this big or newly back to going places, like after COVID.

Corinne

This situation really sucks. It’s hard. And I just want to say that because I feel like none of the advice or solutions I can offer are going to be satisfactory. What I usually do is deeply Google the venue beforehand and look at photos. You can also call ahead and ask, you can just say, can you measure a seat or something?

I feel like the best advice I’ve seen is from Jordan Underwood on TikTok. They have shared that ADA accessible spaces have wheelchair transfer seating, which means the arms on the chairs go up. And you should be able to call and reserve those or another option could be like a space for a wheelchair where you could bring your own chair that fits you and is comfortable or they could provide one.

Virginia

I raised this with venues on my book tour and it was tricky, right? Because the bookstores often only have a stash of folding chairs, they don’t normally have seating for 50 people so they don’t have options. But even one bookstore did say like, okay, well we have three different kinds of folding chairs and we’ll make sure to put out the metal ones which we know have a higher weight capacity than the wood ones. And the Museum of Science in Boston where I did an event in like a big theater, they had thought through ahead of time and they had the wheelchair stuff and they also had a few other options. I think they may be were pulling them out of conference rooms or whatever, but they were like we are ready, just let people know that you can tell us what they need and we’ll pull out extra chairs.

On the flip side, I went to the Tribeca Film Festival to see Aubrey Gordon’s beautiful new film. And my friend Shira Rosenbluth was sitting next to me dying in the chair the whole time. And that’s not Aubrey’s fault. She can’t fix the seating at the Tribeca Film Festival. Different screenings had different chair options and we happened to be at the one that had not great chairs. It’s totally a roll of the dice whether a venue is going to be prepared to do the right thing on this. But I just offer that to say some venues are starting to think about it. You should not feel at all apologetic about asking, you are entitled to this. Knowing that some places are starting to do it, hopefully it gives confidence in like holding others to the same standard.

Corinne

Yeah, I will also say that one thing I’ve done in situations where they have really shitty folding chairs, sometimes I’ll just kind of sit in between two. It’s not like the best, most comfortable.

Virginia

It doesn’t sound comfortable at all. 

Corinne

It’s more comfortable than trying to squash yourself. So I’m just going to offer that as like a total worst case scenario.

And what about your dining chairs?

Virginia

So my dining room chairs, I bought them before I was radicalized on this and just because they’re cute.

And I had a fat friend tell me like, can we please move to your couch like as soon as possible after dinner because your chairs are terrible. So I have a couple of extra Pottery Barn chairs without arms. My mother in law—long story—ended up with extras and gave me a few they’re really cute. They’re down in our basement and I can pull them up when people come over. But I wouldn’t mind, like we have six chairs at our table, upgrading at least two of them, or more. So there are just always some good size inclusive options out here.

But I would love to hear your thoughts on what are the priorities to look for? And also who makes cute size friendly chairs because I started looking in Pottery Barn and they’re all topping out at a weight limit of 250 or 275, which doesn’t seem inclusive enough.

Corinne

Yeah, it’s a huge problem. Also because a lot of places don’t even list the weight capacity.

Virginia

Yeah, I saw that, too. And I was like, well, that’s no good. 

Corinne

The other thing is just that this stuff can get so expensive.

Virginia

I mean, I did spend money on these but it was in 2016.

Corinne

Your chair is a knockoff of a mid century chair that I had and broke, FYI. My grandparents had these chair and I had one and I broke it.

Virginia

Well, it was like a 50 year old chair. 

Corinne

Yeah, it was sentimental and I broke it. 

Some places make chairs that are suitable for—I can’t think of the word, but it’s like they’re suitable for like public places.

Virginia

Oh, like contractor grade or industrial grade.

Corinne

I think those have a higher weight rating. And even though often if they’re certified like that, you can’t find the weight rating. 

Virginia

Cool, that’s helpful guys.

Corinne

But I think IKEA has some. And I have sat in these chairs and I was comfortable and did not feel like I was even close to breaking. Blu Dot has some dining chairs. Like, okay, the chip chair. I’ve always been like, okay, when I have a lot of money in the future, I’ll buy those. They are very expensive.

Virginia

But they’re like $400 a chair. Okay. I don’t know if that’s my solution, but I do love them.

Corinne

I think they’re the like okay for use in a public space in a way that they can have a high weight capacity. But I think that IKEA also has stuff that’s like certified like that. 

Virginia

Okay. 

Corinne

Something that doesn’t have arms and just something feels like sturdy. Sometimes I feel like I’m testing it. 

Virginia

Yeah, that’s not a good feeling. It horrifies me to think someone would come to my house and feel that way. Like, absolutely not. 

Corinne

My dining chairs, they’re extremely secondhand, but they’re from West Elm. And they’re bent plywood or something. They feel sturdy enough to me, but they’re bent plywood and my butt is bigger than the seat so the edges get really uncomfortable after a while. I also have like, I have like a stool-ish thing that I got from Target. It’s just like a round seat with a base that I find really comfortable. But I know some people don’t like a seat without a back.

Virginia

I was going ask if you were pro or con on a bench.

Corinne

Oh, I’m extremely pro-bench. 

Virginia

Okay, because I do like that look where you have some chairs and then a bench on one side. I was thinking that could normally be where my kids sit on the bench and when people come over, we’d have that option.

Corinne

I will always go for the bench, especially because you can pull it out to a distance and like you can kind of like spread out. I’m sitting on a Target dining chair.3 This part is metal so it’s very sturdy. 

Virginia

That’s so cute. 

Corinne

It’s totally fine. It comes in a set of two and it’s cheap. The one thing I will say is the legs are really thin and they will go into your floor. 

Virginia

Okay, that’s good to know. 

Corinne

Maybe put a rug under it or something.

Virginia

Alright, this is very, very helpful. I very much appreciate this information. When I was researching, I saw Ash at The Fat Lip had a list of fat friendly seating that I will include just for more options for people. I did not find a dining chair that I loved there, but I was glad to see it. She talked about the stool thing as being a good option. I think she was giving it also for folks who have mobility challenges. 

Corinne

I would not just rely on the weight ratings, because I just feel like not enough stuff has them. 

Virginia

That’s good to know. 

Corinne

Maybe this is something we should report on. 

Virginia

Do we need chair science?

Corinne

Where is that rating coming from? Are they actually smashing the chairs?

Virginia

That is really interesting. How would we do chair science? I can’t order and return the chairs. Definitely if I go down this project of replacing my dining room chairs I will write about it. So stay tuned. 

Corinne

Okay, good. I want to talk to the people who are making the weight ratings.

Virginia

Yeah. Why are they having these arbitrary cut offs? It’s super irritating. 

Okay. Well, other folks who have chair thoughts, drop them in the comments because this is an ongoing research project for me now. 

Virginia

Alright, we’re gonna get into some fashion questions. Do you want to read the next one?

Corinne

Yes.

What are your thoughts on the need to be overtly feminine as a fat person? More specifically, I always felt the need to have long beautiful hair, maybe to make up for being fat or to contrast the roundness aka fatness of my face. I would love to cut my hair shorter, but it feels so scary.

Virginia

I feel a little attacked by this question. I could have written it myself. Yes, I think there is added pressure to be overtly feminine as a fat person.

Corinne

Yeah, this is definitely real. 

Virginia

It’s very real.

Corinne

It’s the thing where if you’re not fitting into one of the standards, you’re gonna try to hew more closely to the other ones. 

Virginia

I wrote about this in the book tour essay, feeling like I still need to wear heels. And some of it I’ve been letting go, but I admit that hair is one I haven’t let go. I did have a short haircut when I was 25 and extremely thin and I did not like it. So I feel like I tried it thin so I know It’s not just weight related. Do you know what I mean? Like, yeah, I just didn’t like the short hair me. And so I know that about myself. But I am sure it’s all packed up in all of this stuff. 

Corinne

I’m the opposite. I’ve had like every length hair.

Virginia

You have a lot of hair diversity. And whenever I see photos, I’m always like, oh another Corinne hairstyle.

Corinne

Um, yeah, I love cutting my hair. I wish I could do it like every three weeks. I think everyone should feel the freedom to experiment with whatever kind of hair they want.

Virginia

I mean, you always have super cute hair.

Corinne

I have a mullet right now.

Virginia

 I’m here for it. 

Corinne

Yeah, but this is definitely a thing.

Virginia

Sometimes I feel like, we don’t need to do all of the things. Like I talked about this in the Cup of Jo interview. Like, I am still removing some body hair as well. It’s kind of the same as like thinking that if you shop organic, you’re going to solve the food crisis. Like, yes, our own personal choices matter quite a lot. And you divesting from every single beauty standard is not going to make beauty standards go away. So if there are some that feel fun to you, if there are some that feel necessary for survival to you, or for work  or whatever, it’s okay. But it is interesting. This person says I would love to cut my hair shorter, but it feels so scary. That’s not how I feel. I feel like no, I don’t want shorter hair. And if she would love to cut her hair shorter, I think she should.

Corinne

I agree with you. I do think that the long hair/short hair thing is something that even nonfat people struggle with. I think there’s just weird patriarchy men beauty standards.

Virginia

There’s a lot of there’s a lot in here for for sure. That’s a topic I’ve been meaning to dive deeper into for a while. Maybe we’ll maybe we’ll get into that soon.

Well, if you do cut your hair send pics so we can tell you how adorable you are, please. because

Corinne

I am here to support you and your weird haircuts. I think I even support bad haircuts.

Virginia

I love this, it is true hair will always grow out. That’s the thing, whatever it is it’ll change.

Alright, we’ve got an a bunch of shorts questions here.

“Where can I buy the good shorts?” This person asks us if there is one pair of good shorts that we have found. I wish, especially denim. We’ve also gotten “do perfect shorts for middle aged fat women exist? Something simple, no cargo pockets, long inseam, a little bit of stretch. Why is that so hard to find?”

I think the shorts are all terrible for the same reason the jeans are all terrible, like the sizing and the fit stuff is just a nightmare here.

Corinne

Let’s just put it out there, perfect shorts definitely don’t exist.

Virginia

Even the good shorts kind of only barely exist.

Corinne

However.

Virginia

What do you have for us?

Corinne

Well, I don’t know where you can buy the good shorts, but for the second person who’s looking for the perfect shorts for middle aged fat woman with long inseam and stretch, I will just say on old navy.com you can you can filter by type of materials. So you can put in denim and then you can filter by short length. And they definitely have seven to nine inch denim shorts with stretch. So there you go, I feel like that exists.

Virginia

My shorts the summer are I’ve got the Target linen ones that are we discussed last time. Didn’t hold up so well from last summer, but I still wear them some. I have some Athleta linen ones with a drawstring waist. I don’t think they’re as inclusive as they claim—I think I’m wearing the 20. And I have some J Crew cut offs in denim. That’s where I’m getting denim. And they are not size inclusive. I think I’m in the biggest size and I had to buy two pairs because they stretch out so much by the second wearing that there’s no point. So it’s just like jeans.

Corinne

I’m wearing a lot of bike shorts. I have two pairs of bike shorts that I’m wearing constantly. Neither of them are currently available for purchase, so I sort of just don’t even want to tell you.

Virginia

I do have some really good bike shorts from Target and from Universal standard.

Corinne

For every day outfit wearing bike shorts, I like the ones that aren’t the stretchy athletic material.

Virginia

Like the Universal Standard ones. 

Corinne

One pair is bamboo. I have jean shorts that I’m wearing almost daily from H&M. Now H&M makes plus sizes and they go up to a 26 which is not the worst.

Virginia

I have a hard time styling bike shorts. I don’t know why because I wear leggings all the time in the winter and I can style leggings. Why can I not style bike shorts?

Corinne

I mean, I can see that. Right now I’m just wearing a tee shirt. Here’s a styling recommendation: Wear a tee shirt with your bike shorts.

Virginia

Breaking news.

Corinne

Wear a shirt with your shorts. That’s my styling advice. I don’t know. I feel like the the advice to everyone is to wear an oversized button up thing.

Virginia

Ah, an oversized button up thing.

Corinne

Either long sleeve or short.

Virginia

Right, long sleeves and you roll up the sleeves.

Corinne

Do you have those or not?

Virginia

I have a chambray button down I love! It’s long sleeved, and it’s been really hot here. My sister-in-law that I talk about the time, she has amazing style. She has a short sleeved one that I saw when she was here last week. And I was coveting it. And now you’ve just given me another reason to buy one. 

Corinne

Also another thing you can do is if you have like a button up dress, you can wear a button up dress over them, like unbuttoned.

Virginia

Oh, that’s interesting 

Corinne

With a shirt. 

Virginia

Yes. Oh, maybe with that stripey Draper James dress? You know that dark blue striped dress? Oh, I’m excited. Okay. All right. I’ll report back. I’ll do some experimenting with my bike shorts.

Corinne

Give us some styles.

Virginia

You want to read the next one?

Corinne

Yes.

Virginia, how do you feel about being on Cup of Jo when she regularly promotes clothing lines that aren’t fat inclusive?

Virginia

Fair question. Very fair question. You look a little appalled.

Corinne

That’s like, how do you feel about living in a world where thin people exist?

Virginia

My thinking, guys, that is we will get thin fashion bloggers to be more size inclusive if they show fat people…which they did by featuring me on Cup of Jo. And I was interviewed by a fat writer, Kelsey Miller, who writes for Cup of Jo frequently and is awesome. And I did my best to shout out fat brands. I’m wearing my Wray dress in one of the pictures. So yeah, I feel great about it. I really love how that profile turned out. They were a dream to work with. Joanna and Kelsey are delightful human beings. And I’m so pleased that they did that piece. I feel nothing but good about it. 

And yes, I would love everyone who covers fashion to be thinking about size inclusivity more. And where we are right now with the market they cannot be an exclusively size inclusive site or they would have no content.

Corinne

I also really enjoyed reading that profile and was excited to see you there. And I’m constantly wishing that I could read fashion content that ever featured stuff in my size. 

Virginia

I mean, it’s a totally valid thing. But one of the ways we change it is by me saying yes when they say hey, do you want to come talk about fat clothes? And it shouldn’t just be me obviously, but they’ve done Lindy West. They’ve done Angela Garbes, like they’ve done lots of fat fashion people.

Okay, this person wants to know our recommendations for stylish skirted swimsuits.

I’m never going to be a bikini girl. And it seems the only stylish suits are bikinis now.

Corinne

Have you Googled? Because I feel like there’s a lot of skirted swim options! 

Virginia

Yeah. I think I’m seeing a lot more skirts this year. 

Corinne

Good American, who we were talking about earlier, they have a swim dress. I feel like you might still need to buy bottoms with it. Like, I feel like it might just be a dress. Which, whatever but. 

Virginia

You do you. Most people wanting a swim skirt don’t want to show their vulva to the world. 

Corinne

Right. But the good thing about that is then you don’t have the problem of peeing in one piece!

Virginia

Oh, that’s kind of great, actually. You can just buy some cheap black bikini bottoms. Like, don’t overthink it and then you’re good to go. 

Corinne

Yeah, Summersalt also has one that seemed really cute.

Virginia

I mean, I their sizing is bonkers. I cannot in good conscience allow this podcast to endorse Summersalt.

Corinne

Summersalt, nevermind. 

Virginia

If you have no boobs, it’s fine. And I will say I can wear their bottoms. Like their high waist swim bottoms are pretty good. And the sizing seemed accurate. So I would maybe look for their skirt bottoms with your own top, if you have boobs. If you don’t have boobs, try their tops, too. I don’t know. They seem great for no boobs.

Corinne

I’m a huge fan of Torrid swim. I feel like it just fits really well. They definitely have dresses. You can also find a lot of new with tags but previous season Torrid swim stuff on like Poshmark, eBay, etc. Also Universal Standard just came out with swim and they have a swim dress.

Virginia

So you’re swimming in swim dresses.

Corinne

I have so much to say on this topic. I feel like another option if you don’t want to wear a dress, is there are so many good swim short options. You could do a top with shorts. I just feel like there’s so many options this year for swimsuits that aren’t just like a bikini, so do some looking. 

Virginia

I do think your tip about considering components is really helpful. I think sometimes people think they aren’t bikini people, which I fully respect—I only recently became a bikini person and the main reason I’m a bikini person is because I hate peeing in one piece swimsuits. I actually think one piece swimsuits are cute but if I’m going to wear it for more than 20 minutes, so annoying.

This is a broken record I say every summer, but Land’s End has a lot. It’s size inclusive to a point and I have a nice basic navy swim skirt from them that goes with a lot of different things. 

Corinne

Oh, see! You have a swim skirt!

Virginia

Yes. Because on the body hair question, there are times where I would rather wear a swim skirt than deal with that whole situation. So I have a black and the Navy one. And then I could just pair them and it’s more mix and match, you know? 

Corinne

Yeah, totally. 

Okay. I’m very intrigued by the last question I’m about to ask you.

Virginia

This is a random but I loved it. I was like, we have to include it.

Corinne

Who wrote this in? 

Virginia

I don’t know.

Corinne

Can you French braid?

Virginia

I can French braid.

Corinne

So can I.

Virginia

But let me tell you the great sadness in my life is that I’m really good at French braiding. And neither of my children will allow me to French braid. 

Corinne

That’s awful. 

Virginia

They want nothing to do with braids. They barely  want anything to do with hair brushing.

Corinne

My mom french braided my hair.

Virginia

Yeah, it’s like a lovely tradition. Not in this house. 

Corinne

It’s also I feel that a French braid is very utilitarian. It keeps everything back. 

Virginia

It’s super useful. I’m actually glad this person randomly asked this question because this is reminding me since I have long hair because I am attached to beauty standards as we previously unpacked. I’m also very hot, it’s like wearing a sweater. And I’m not really feeling the top knot so much anymore so maybe I need to get back into French braiding. Give it a try.

Corinne

Stay tuned. 

Virginia

Alright, Corinne, I have just texted you this month’s hate mail. You’re welcome. Take it away.

Corinne

Oh, boy, this is a long one.

It was really sad to recognize your obvious bias against physicians in the medical community. Based on your estimated age and life experiences I would opine that you have no idea that your fantasy story about how physicians treat patients and how obesity is not truly a major health disease really impacts the readers. If you really wanted to present truthful information, perhaps you should spend some time in a physician’s office.

Because of your youth and inexperience. You don’t seem to know about the changes that our bodies go through with the aging process and how insulin resistance and obesity affect our health. My training as an osteopathic physician has taught me that all the body’s systems are connected as is structure and function related 

Millennials such as yourself are under the impression that you found all the answers. There is some faultless society that can result in the problems you face. In fact, what you really crave is flash in the pan notoriety and to build up your, quote, followers. Frankly, you should be embarrassed by your assumptions and your conclusion based on your personal bias. 

Well, I didn’t start this letter trying to be rude. It’s very frustrating to me personally as a physician, cardiovascular surgeon, with well over 30 years of experience to have to debunk the misinformation from writing such as yours. And while you likely enjoy thinking that you are sticking it to the medical community, because your generalizations about us resonate with the, quote Google research experts. Instead you are sowing distrust in the most noble profession on the planet. Sorry, no trophy.

Virginia

Okay, so now I would like you to click the link I sent you to this person’s website. So you can see what he does for a living. 

Corinne

Oh my god, what the fuck?!

Virginia

He is a plastic surgeon. 

Corinne

Okay, It is an aesthetic care institute which will go unnamed. Yeah, I was a little confused because he does say an osteopathic physician and then he says…

Virginia

He’s a cardiovascular surgeon. He’s wearing a lot of hats. Let’s say it is in a warm, sunny place where elderly people go to have their bodies altered. And they do a lot of anti-aging treatments, skincare, laser aesthetics. They also do vein stuff, like varicose veins, which like can be really painful. But it’s definitely with a focus on aesthetics. Like the website is full of before and after photos on how much prettier your legs will look. So thanks for writing. No agenda there. 

Corinne

Oh my God and I love that then he’s like, Well, I didn’t start this letter trying to be rude. Now I realize I’m being extremely rude yet I’m still going to send it.

Virginia

Definitely pressing send no matter what. No matter how rude

Corinne

How old do you think this guy is? 

Virginia

He’s older than me. But I mean, I am 42.

Corinne
I guess he’s not a millennial, 

Virginia

I don’t think he’s a millennial. And I am a millennial. I am the oldest kind of millennial, but I am technically one. But I do write about more than my own age and life experiences.  I don’t just like write a whimsical thing about my life. Anyway. Oh my god, that was a fun one. I thought you would enjoy. 

Butter

Corinne

Alright. Moving on to the butter. 

Virginia

Yeah, let’s get to the good stuff. 

I’m very excited about the butter. Are you ready for some serious plant related adorableness? 

Corinne

Oh my gosh! 

Virginia

Is this not the cutest thing you’ve ever seen? You can describe it for people since they can’t see.

Corinne

Okay. What I’m looking at is a very cute little planter that is in the shape of a fat person. 

Virginia

Yep. Yep. 

Corinne

Naked fat woman person.

Virginia

Yep. Yep. And it’s hot pink. 

Corinne

The plant grows out of the head. 

Virginia

The plant would be like the upper shoulders and head. 

Corinne

And it also looks like it has drainage.

Virginia

It has drainage holes, we appreciate. It is 3D printed plastic. It’s kind of shiny and it’s so cute. And it is from Jodyann Morgan the company is CTOAN. Jodyann is on Instagram. She is delightful. It’s a black, queer owned small business. She makes handpoured candles also shaped like fat bodies. And she just introduced these planters and and OMG I was like, cannot buy one fast enough. They come in two sizes. They also come in yellow and purple. I just bought the little pink one, a little magenta one, to start off my collection, but I think it’s going to be a thing. 

Corinne

That’s awesome. What are you going to put in it?

Virginia

I’m still deciding, because I feel like it needs a plant that really feels like hair in some way.

Corinne

Something with like a lot of volume. 

Virginia

Yeah. Or maybe one of those succulents like the burros tail? Something like that would be really neat. So anyway, everyone go get yourself a naked fat lady planter.

Corinne

Awesome. Okay, my butter is a shirt, which I have recently been wearing, which is the Pammy Blouse from Fashion Brand Company. 

Basically, this brand Fashion Brand Company, which you might be able to tell from the name is kind of hilarious. They make a lot of weird funny stuff. A few years ago, I got a shirt for my mom from them that said modern fart and we just laughed for like one hour when she opened it. There’s also a shirt that says Sex House, which is just like what? But the stuff is also really well made, it’s not like shitty fast fashion.

Virginia

This is adorable. This is the shirt where I told you, you look like the Indigo Girls!

Corinne

Oh, yes. I forgot. This is my Emily shirt.

So they have all this weird stuff and I just feel like this is the kind of thing that is very rare to find in bigger plus sizes. I actually ordered this shirt in two sizes and the bigger one was too big which almost never happens to me. I’m usually like, order the biggest size and maybe it’ll fit right. So it is quite inclusive, at least in some of their products. And I just find the humor hilarious and a lot of the stuff is also very cute. And it’s like well made, like very thick fabric.

Virginia

So people have a visual, this is a black button down shirt with a lot of fringe happening. 

Corinne

Oh yes. It’s a black button down shirt with silver embroidered barbed wire against silver fringe on the chest. 

Virginia

It’s awesome. Like a Western meets motorcycle vibe going on. And again, very Indigo Girls.

Corinne

This style also comes in a bunch of different colors with different embroidery. And I want them all.

Virginia

That’s an excellent butter.

We did an episode! We went long today, but I think we covered a lot of important ground so thanks for hanging in there with us. Thanks for listening to Burnt Toast.

Corinne

If you’d like to support the show, please subscribe for free in your podcast player and leave us a rating or review. The trolls are showing up at the podcast reviews, too. So leave us a review and help us keep our five star rating. Reviews and ratings also help new listeners find the show.

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1. From Corinne: I am sorry to report that a LOT of the plus sizes in these suits are sold out on the Good American website, however as of the time of publishing there are some plus sizes still available through Anthropologie, Nordstrom, ShopBop, etc.

2. From Corinne: I am wearing the biggest size in both, either 4x/5x or 7/8 or 3x/4x (different retailers have them labelled differently) and I am bigger than the recommended body measurements for those sizes per the size chart.

3. From Corinne: These say the weight capacity is 250 but can definitely hold at least 150% of that.