The Speed of Change Is Not What You're Saying

Transcript: Joe Krebs 0:10

Agile FM radio for the Agile community. www.agile.fm. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Agile FM today. I have Kevin Callahan with me. He is an MSP OD you can figure out what that is. But also an ICE EC, and that is a topic I want to talk about clarify what those acronyms stand for. Kevin, I think you're dialing tuning in from Maine.

Kevin Callahan 0:44

That is correct. Yep.

Joe Krebs 0:46

Here we go. Welcome to the podcast.

Kevin Callahan 0:47

Thanks. Thanks, Joe. Good to be here.

Joe Krebs 0:50

Yeah, cool. So we're gonna talk about a little bit about ice. But first and foremost, what is MSc POD pod?

Kevin Callahan 0:57

MSc POD is a master's of science and positive organization development, That's a degree granted by the Weatherhead School of Management at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland. And what it seeks to do is take sort of a traditional OD perspective and sort of manipulate it to have a complexity perspective around it. And to have, you know, much of traditional OD in this maybe starts getting right to the core of enterprise coaching. So much of traditional OD and change management is a predictive process control or predictive improvement control where we can know what sort of the whole path is going to be. And and what the degree program that I participated in is much more about an evolutionary process of becoming. And so we have lots of different strategies and tools and what not in our in our quiver. But it's it's starting with the the acknowledgement that human systems are complex things. And so you don't always know can't always know really what's going to happen. And so how do you how do you go undergo organizational change through that? Lens?

Joe Krebs 2:12

Awesome. sounds super, super interesting. And the one thing that you are building a bridge to is the organizational capabilities, we'll talk a little about enterprise coaching, I know what that is from that is. That is a track that is a learning path. It's an expert Learning Path of ICAgile. So there is their certificates, they're more like on knowledge based certificates, training courses, etc. That is very, very different. You were instrumental in that enterprise coaching, obviously, agile enterprise coaching. Part of that. So I want to talk a little bit about that, can you just give like a quick overview of what that program is, and, and like, you know, what, you know, lead listeners out there. And so like, what is this is enterprise and why is an expert certificate and how does this all fit together?

Kevin Callahan 3:04

Yeah, so. So maybe the the first thing is just to differentiate the E part versus the P part. So you know, ICAgile as a accrediting body. And a certifying body has two kind of classes of certification. One is a professional certification, which is a knowledge base cert, you go to the class, you participate in class, you pretty much get the cert, then there's the expert level, which is a competency based certification. So it's a fundamentally different shift. In the past, what that looked like, was sitting before a panel of fellow experts to demonstrate your competency across a series of sort of defined outcomes or learning objectives that you needed to be able to kind of speak to. So if you're going for agile team coaching, you had to be able to demonstrate to a panel of experts that you knew how to coach. Right. Rather than, you know, some of the other certifying bodies were like, heavily artifact based and if you know, I've had some bad experiences, like I didn't fill out the form, right? So because I didn't fill out the form, right? They didn't, you know, they rejected my application, right? And so you have to go redo it. So what we want to do what we wanted to do, starting back in 2018, or so when IC Agile, invited a group of us to build this new certified expert and enterprise coaching pathway or learning objective was to say, our kind of guiding paradigm was we want to create a cohort based experience. So you have to go through a cohort to earn this certification. Because the cohort leads need to understand who are you as a coach? And what are you capable of and where do you have gaps and where do you have strengths and how are you working with those things and through that, through that cohort experience, you're you are building an artifact to an experience His journey or you know, case study where there's lots of different ways we can call it. The difference for me is that it is not about the artifact, it is about becoming the coach who can create the artifact, right. And that's why we do the cohorts. That's why we have really skilled leads who, you know, are facilitating those cohorts, it's, you know, I've worked with adventures with an agile on their track. And we're really clear in ours that, you know, we're there with you. For me, it's a really intimidating thing to do, actually, because I'm working with my peers in this in this very high level senior practitioner space. Every cohort, we've just wrapped up our third one, there's people that know more than I do about some of the stuff like that's the reality of enterprise coaching, that it is a huge, wide, deep field. And when none of us can know all of it, like we're gonna run into people that know a lot more about certain things. So, you know, what's your relationship to that?

Joe Krebs 5:56

Yeah. In a in a recent episode with Bob Galen, and I talked about agile coaching, I think more from a team's perspective and another episode, right? With you, I really want to explore a little bit enterprise coaching, how that differs. And one of the differences are like, let's say somebody is a scrum master, let's say, somebody is in an Agile Coach working with a single team within an organization, but maybe not with Scrum but something else. How, you know, how, what are the differences? Or if somebody says, I'm interested in intrigued, and I'm learning about expert enterprise coaching? And I would like to, you know, go on a journey in my career. What, what is, what does that entail? And is it for me?

Kevin Callahan 6:41

So I think, I think first and foremost, you'll probably get different answers from different people. So the way that I answered that, and my good friend and colleague, Louria Lindauer, and I have put a talk together on this very question, sort of what's the difference between a team level coach and enterprise coach? And fundamentally, the short answer is, it's a question of scale, and have another level of complexity. What it is not is a linear progression of path of oh, you need to start as a team level coach, which is a stepping stone to enterprise coaching. It can be though, a skilled team level coach is its own discipline. It's a fully featured functional discipline, that to be really good as a practicing team level coach, like some people, that is really what they want to do. And I think it's important to honor that and and to say, yeah, there's things that you know how to do as a team level coach, that practicing enterprise coach won't necessarily know how to do, they might never have done it, or they might have forgotten how to do it. Apologies if there's a bunch of noise behind me or got pots being sorted through something. So there's, it's not a linear journey, it's to equally valid professional disciplines, that ought to have I believe, have the same kind of weight and respect. They are it is it is a fundamentally different kind of level of complexity. Because you know, as a team level coach, you might be working with one or two or three teams. And as an enterprise coach, you might be working with, you know, one or two or 300 people or more. And so there's that, it just, it's very, very different, like, you know, some of the patterns like hey, you should probably have some degree of alignment and agreement, you should probably have explicit policies, you should probably be taking any economic outlook, a lot of the stuff that we pull from Kanban is true, if both stages, you should be sensitive to your contexts from using like a cynefin perspective, and what kind of constraints are we putting in place? And what kind of practices are we deploying? And you know, what kind of probe sense respond feedback loops? Do we have running all of that stuff? Is is intact in both domains, both disciplines, it's just how it actually looks is really, really different.

Joe Krebs 9:13

See them as parallel tracks., like going, you know, next to each other. You could go for the team, you could go for enterprise. But you could also do obviously a stepping stone to start with a team and then expand you meet maybe they're more insights that way, right? How do I teams because at some point you do even on an enterprise coaching level you you will interact with the teams?

Kevin Callahan 9:37

Yeah, it definitely and you will definitely be interacting with some level of team coach whether it's a scrum master or team Agile coach. If we're talking about the scale of an engagement that are scale of an organization or scale of a change that requires an enterprise skill set, that by nature in the complexity is higher, we cannot attend to all have the sort of tactical day to day stuff, that doesn't mean it's not important or it's less important. That means it needs somebody else who is their job to focus on that. And that's their skill set. And that's where they're really diale and So and then we can we can collaborate together and make sure that they're, you know, again, that alignment is making sense. And then, you know, people are actually behaving as if they belong to the same organization instead of behaving as if they belong to lots of little organizations, which is really counterproductive. You know, there's, there's all kinds of stuff that that can happen with that.

Joe Krebs 10:33

So what are the some of the stances or things that might change from a from a team level to an enterprise coaching level, right? So like, what is what makes enterprise coaching so unique? If you want to paint a picture for, I guess, one master out there, or somebody who is possibly starting that, yeah, the coaching field.

Kevin Callahan 10:52

So one of one of the, there's a couple of things just off the top my head, one of them is, and let me just take couple of notes on this. One of them is who are you working with. And so as a team level coach, which I've filled that role, you know, my path along as an agilist, this is kind of interesting, because I've been around long enough that I was actually a scrum team developer. So I actually worked on a scrum team, as an engineer, I worked as a scrum master. And then I sort of grew into an Agile coach role, not because it was a intentional pathway, it's just sort of what happened is I've worked impediments that started reaching outside of my team, or teams to other parts of the organization. And so then I've started coaching other parts of the organization because they needed help. So they could not be an impediment to the developer effort, right. And then as that started getting improvements, and the narratives that the way people were talking about, their work started changing, and executives started taking notice that something was different. And they didn't know what except that I was involved. And so they kind of said, we don't know what you do, literally, I got called into the CFOs office, who was like, also our head of HR wasn't a good thing to get called into his office. And, and he sits me down and he closes the door. And I'm like, I don't know what I did to get fired, but I think I'm getting fired. And he goes, he just looks at me, and he says, we don't know what you do. And I go, I'm definitely gonna get in. So we don't know what you do. But we can tell it makes a big difference. And we can we know, we want more of it. So we want to create a position for you, we don't know what it will be called. So can you tell us what we should call your new role, and we don't know what you need from us support wise. So what if I give you an empty budget template, and you tell me how much money you need to be effective. And we'll start there. And so and that was back in, that's 10 years ago, the name you gave, for that I said, I said enterprise Agile coach, right? But that was, you know, cuz that's kind of what I was. But I also realized very quickly, like, oh, my gosh, like I got, I got a thin set of tools for this job, which is why I went back to graduate school to get my Master's in organizational development to try to kind of fill that sort of backfill a little bit so that I didn't feel totally without any any kind of skills and capabilities and knowledge as I was trying to operate at a higher level. So anyway, um, so that's one thing. So as a team, coach, sorry, totally went off. Off topic though. So as a team coach, you tend to work with, you know, a team or teams, you might work with their their managers, they're sort of mid level management, you might work with other agile coaches, you might be coaching Scrum Masters, you know, so that's sort of the scope as as an enterprise coach, the people that I'm working with tend to be very senior leaders, sometimes executive, sometimes, not quite, maybe like VP's, or director level. But I don't, for the most part, work day to day with teams and team members, you know, the people doing the delivery, I'm working with people like chief product owners, and portfolio managers and heads of PMO's. And, you know, program heads and people who are trying to strategically pivot their organizations to achieve better results or respond to pressures that they're not sure how to respond to. And so depending on what you're attracted to, one of those may be more attractive, more interesting, right? I really like being a trusted adviser. And I really like coaching leaders to become more effective leaders, especially senior leaders, because I think they have the best opportunity to change the whole systems. Right? Like if we're trying to get a value stream orientation, you're gonna have a hard time with a team, a software team convincing other participants in that value stream to reorganize with them, and they might not even have the authority to do so. Versus a program head, you know, we can They can talk to them about a value stream. And they can say, Wow, that actually makes a lot of sense. Now we can talk about how might you start making that transition in a safe and evolutionary way. So, again, like, Who are you working with? Right? Are you working with senior level people? It tends to be much less concrete for the most part, you know, a lot of conversations, a lot of coaching conversations, a lot of you know, leading from very far behind. And not a lot of credit for the work that that happens as a result, because, you know, that's what we want. We want people to feel like they've done the work themselves the improvement is there because of that. Maybe this not because of us.

Joe Krebs 15:39

Yeah, but maybe the speed of change is also a little bit slow, I would assume. Right? It's very progress. Right.

Kevin Callahan 15:46

So the place that I started as an enterprise coach, I was there as an agilist for five years, you know, and made a very lasting impact based on what other people tell me, right? That's not what I'm saying. That's what other that's the feedback. I've gotten from, you know, the executives and people that were on the teams that have changed a lot because I was there, but it took years. And one of my current engagements, we just flipped past year three, and it's starting to pop in some ways we've kind of slid backwards or regressed in other ways. We've made just amazing, amazing, you know, the sophistication for example of our multi level Kanban or portfolio intake processes, the way that we organize in response to work? It's it's pretty amazing stuff.

Joe Krebs 16:33

Yeah, I mean, it's that's really fundamental change within anorganization, I guess, did you just say, three years? You were like, three years? Yeah, that is that is something I recently saw on a business agility report from the Agile Alliance as well. That was like the average time where somebody would see the benefits of, true, like, no doubt was more like around business agility, right. Yeah, things take time

Kevin Callahan 16:58

They do. And so you know, another thing that that, as an enterprise coach, you ought to be pretty familiar with is negotiating contract. And negotiating customer engagements and negotiating sort of parameters and expectations. You know, we could call that a designed Alliance, if you want to use sort of coaching speak. Or you can call it a contract or kind of whatever. There's, there's different nuances, of course, but one of the questions I ask is, what do you expect, from a time perspective this to take? You're talking to me for a reason? How long do you think it's going to take? Because I want to know, what are they thinking. And I would much rather because they also have a set amount of money that they're going to spend, and I've been a 40 hour week button, see Agile coach on site Monday through Thursday, and then he fly home Thursday night, if you're lucky, you get to see your family for a couple of days before you go back. And, you know, most of the time, I was in a wait state, you know, we're waiting for engagement, or we're trying to, we're trying to make a difference. So I'd much rather from a, from an enterprise perspective, say, let's have me there a little bit every week, or have me available, and you call me you pull me in like it's on you, we're gonna You're gonna pay me some relatively modest amount, every every week or every month for a longer period. So that we are more likely to get that change, rather than, you know, go go really hard, fast for a quarter and pretend you know, then we try to do a bunch of teams, then you walk away and nothing changed. But they spent a lot of money and they checked the box, right? So anyway, so that's another that's another kind of angle on the Enterprise piece of that gets into the business agility piece of, you know, how do you how do you operate a business? How do you operate an organization? You know, there's governance, and there's budgeting, and there's finance and there's, you know, HR policies, and there's all of that stuff that a team level coach is probably not going to be interacting with at all?

Joe Krebs 18:58

Well, these are the fundamental changes that on business issues, how would you define the difference? I just don't want to I don't want to just jump over them. If somebody listens to this and says, like, Are you a business that should be allowed? We're talking about enterprise agility? Yeah. What are the Are there any different?

Kevin Callahan 19:14

All the buzzwords. So I'm a very pragmatic practitioner. And so I've been trying to distill down this kind of concept of agility for years. And what I've come to believe it is the best definition of it is, do you retain choice? As an organization, do you have choice to respond rather than react? Do you understand when you've made commitments and why is the decision making process by which you make those commitments coherence and transparent and sensitive to the context you might be in? And that sometimes you you know, again, I'm a big proponent of the cynefin framework and Dave Snowdens work, Nevin center. And so because of things look so different depending on what context you're operating in, and context isn't like homogenous, right, they're all it's all swirling together anyway. Are we bringing the right kind of thinking to the, to the kind of problem that we're trying to work with? And oh, by the way, if it's a complex problem, those changes you work on. You do something to it, and it's going to morph and turn into something else. And so your whole plan just went out the window. Sometimes it's in your favor, and sometimes it's not. But again, do you have choice? Do you have the ability to pivot with that thing? Or let it go? Or are you locked into something? Because you have an annual budgeting process? For example? It's like, Well, we already know we that's not what we decided to do this year. So we're gonna wait, well, it's that opportunity is gonna be gone. it's here now. So right,

Joe Krebs 20:55

right. And that makes things slower, right? Because you might have missed an opportunity to change that you might need a year, obviously, how many years as an organization to have to build this kind of system to work effectively and respond to their customers in an effective way?

Kevin Callahan 21:12

Well, yeah, and you know, the world doesn't owe any organization an existence. And so that's fact number one. The world owes your company or your organization, whatever it is, nothing. Yeah. And so your job, if you would like to survive, is to kind of interact with the world as the world is not as you want it to be. And, and most places say that the rates of change have gone up, the rates of interdependence have gone up, the sensitivity to disruption have gone up, whether it's COVID, whether its workforce, whether it's whatever, supply chain, customer expectations, social media, whatever, we need to be able to respond not just chasing reactions. And so that, that need to be able to preserve choice, I think is really, really critical. If you do that you you have achieved agility as a as an adjective, not a noun. Right. And, and whether you're talking about enterprise agility, or business agility, I don't really know that the terminology is that important. It's are you Yeah, are you? Are you pivoting? Right? Are you working with the world as the world invites you and changes? Or are you risking making horrible decisions that are catching up to you, and a lot of organizations have made horrible decisions that caught up to them? That's right. And, again, the world doesn't owe them an existence, some, some have some protections, like insurance companies have a lot of regulatory support. You know, certain manufacturing sectors have a lot of, you know, governmental support, or, you know, industry support. So,

Joe Krebs 22:57

things change, even though maybe on a slower pace, but it will change. I just wanted to clarify a little bit. Those, those topics usually very often come up, I myself, as you know, work in similar space on a coaching site. However, what I would like to know from you is because that's something I encounter quite a bit is when I do work on enterprise engagements. That's at the team level. A, what's very interesting is that organizations, I have a tool that, but what I'm noticing is that organizations come up with their own definition of Agile.

Kevin Callahan 23:34

Oh, yeah.

Joe Krebs 23:35

So like the military, and I get, you know, agile enterprise coaching, you know, on a team level, I think we have very good definitions because of certain process frameworks in place, etc, and implementing those on on a team and working and obviously refining. But on an enterprise level that is very different, because organizations are very different. Do you see out there and how do you level set? It's a because the Agile Manifesto, born with this should be the driving force of what we think as a common understanding of what Agile is, right?

Kevin Callahan 24:09

Yeah. I think it's, it doesn't hurt. I think it might. It might be, it might be a little, I think that we've learned a tremendous amount, right. The first line is we're learning better ways of building software by doing it. And so I think that it, it has, you know, I'm going to use a gesture here. Joe said, you can't gesture because audio only, but if you think of sort of like a center of a set of concentric circles, you know, like maybe the Agile Manifesto is sort of one of these sort of fundamentals centers, but it has grown a lot like our knowledge base has grown like, you know, certainly maybe scrum was pretty well baked in 2001 and Kanban. You know, David Anderson's blue book came out in 2006. Like we've learned about that since then, you know, Value Stream orientation was pretty well known in manufacturing, but it hadn't yet really made the leap over to knowledge work yet. Um, same thing with Theory of Constraints, like it hadn't yet made the leap out of, you know, really highly predictable, repeatable process management into how do you apply this towards knowledge work with its inherent variability and randomness? Now, we know, right, like, now we have access to these things it has been created. We just have to be curious and humble enough to go out there and find it.

Joe Krebs 25:31

You're adding, we're adding to that knowledge base. Putting upon that, right. So yeah, all right.

Kevin Callahan 25:37

Yeah, so I think, again, like I'm a pragmatic practitioner, I'm an empirical practitioner. So I don't know like, I'm not a fan of highly prescriptive frameworks, like, I don't want to get into, you know, SAFe, good or SAFe bad. I think safe has some very big assumptions about the predictability of what you need. Maybe that's, you know, whatever, I choose not to pursue that. That particular framework. I think there's a lot of amazing stuff in it, like multi level Kanban, I think that's usually a pretty good idea for your intake management. You know, and so, so again, there's good practices in there.

Joe Krebs 26:19

We all coming down to the practices, right? Yeah. So it is a little buffet style. Yeah. What you're describing, and there are some times and I don't know, I just want to see if you share that, experience that organization sometimes or it's like, yes, we do want to go Agile, but the question is, what what does it actually mean in the first place? Right? So like, what's the direction where we go on with this? And sometimes, especially on the leadership side, we or I encounter situations where it's not necessarily clear what Agile actually means, and some eye opening conversation, sometimes even the beginning. Thank God, it's right, right, before we go down a path like this, but it is a crucial thing to work with an organization to, you know, introduce agility in a way that it's a it's it's a common understanding and like, not necessarily creating a customs illusion for, for for a specific organization. Right.

Kevin Callahan 27:17

Yeah, you know, and I think one of the things that I, again, I think a lot of the effectiveness is an in an engagement as an enterprise coach comes down to what did what did we agree to together? .Right, and who was a party to that agreement. So So who's sort of the the key stakeholder, the sponsor in this client organization, and who's you know, as an enterprise coach, it ought to be you like, you ought to be able to meet with someone who is a program or higher lead, and has some pretty substantial business problems that they can articulate to you and pressures that they can articulate to you. And if they can't, that you can probe and draw them out? To say, Well, why are we really talking? Right, that's one of the questions I'll ask in early conversations with prospect prospective clients, like why are we talking like, what are you? What do you want to do that's different than what you're doing today? Or what are you trying to become that you're not today? Or what what's your pain point? You know, and usually they'll say things like, Oh, we're too slow, or we're not aligned, or whatever. And unrelated data

Joe Krebs 28:25

organizations, right?

Kevin Callahan 28:26

Yeah. You know, they don't, they don't know how to what they don't know how to start work. They don't know how to do intake. So again, if if, if agility is fundamentally about choice and preserving choice, I think one of the most important questions out of kind of a Theory of Constraints world is what's your signal to start work. And if you don't know what that is, you're probably starting too much. And if you're starting too much, like it's been well studied, what happens if you take a flow based system and you overload it, it slows down, it bogs down, everything takes longer, it incurs rework, your quality goes down, you know, people get really dissatisfied, because that's not kicks off. Sort of, you know, if self reinforcing loops of not enough is getting done. So people are kind of leaned on to do more. And if they're not at the constraint or constraints, then they're actually degrading the system further and becoming demoted. You know, it's just like, oh, my gosh, like, we can just see this play out just time and time and time again. And so yeah, as an enterprise coach, like you got to be familiar with that stuff, to be able to go have those conversations and, and understand, you know, what is your signal to start work? Do you know? What, what is your ability to preserve choice and to be very careful about what you actually commit to? Because that matters. And then by the way, if it's all a complex, adaptive response, you'd never really know anyway, because as soon as you think, you know, the risk is a change. Isn't it something else? Or you missed? A key quiet signal of what was actually really, really important. And you did the wrong thing?

Joe Krebs 30:07

Yeah. I mean, Crucial Conversations, right? Because you know if even for for the coach itself, right? It's like if you're coming in as an outsider or as an external, let's say agile coach, trusted advisor, things like that, just mentioned. Right, super important for level setting the the engagement. I wanted to bring you on your Kevin, exactly what we just talked about and to create awareness around this topic, introducing the topic of enterprise coaching. Awesome, right. I really think it is important. I know also, what you said about these parallel tracks, that there is coexistence, that the knowledge, the body of knowledge became so big that there is space for several things. Way back. 20 years back, things were different. Like introducing it to a team enterprise agility, as far as I know, did not exist. That topic that concern? Yeah, yeah, the awareness and everything. And I think what you just did was really level setting this a very, very nice for, for the listeners. And before we depart, I want to ask you, yeah, just like, I don't know, I just put this out there. What would you like to see change? I mean, you're so involved in this discipline? What is it you like? Just if there was one thing you would like to see changed? In terms of agile enterprise coaching, business agility, that causes pain to you? Where you would say, I wish I could change that or turn back time or create awareness? When would it be putting a big one out here,

Kevin Callahan 31:49

if I could be king for a day with my magic wand? I think honestly, the the thing that I would, I would invite is a higher level of critical thinking. And in a more serious empirical mindset of, of really being able to admit, look, we don't know right now. And thus, we need to get some information. And it's not about getting all the information. It's about getting enough of the information to make an informed decision that we can take the next step. And, and it's really unsexy. To do so. And, and there's no certificates to sell. And there's no frameworks to sell. It's just really hard pragmatic work is kind of like, you know, just getting back to the fundamentals of you want to get stronger, like go lift, heavy stuff, like it's really unsexy. It's really on glorious, it's really hard work. And it's hard every single time you do it. But that's how you get the results. And if we want to change the way our organizations are functioning, I think attending to the the less flashy, less sexy stuff. That is where the actual next step change is to evolve together towards a better outcome is that's where I would like to see us go as a sort of an industry of practitioners

Joe Krebs 33:14

What a nice outlook. Thank you, Kevin. And, you know, obviously, we'll both in this field and keep monitoring the events of how things are going. But it was really nice talking to you. I want to say thanks.

Kevin Callahan 33:27

Thanks, Joe.

Joe Krebs 33:29

good luck with all your work. Thank you. We're gonna speak again. And maybe we bumped into each other at Agile conferences again.

Kevin Callahan 33:36

I hope so. Yeah. Or, or agile New York or wherever. And who knows, come up to Maine and let me know. Yeah, and definitely, I just extend an invitation if people want to learn more, find me on LinkedIn, about launching a new website. So LinkedIn is probably the best place to find me. Kevin Callahan, MSc POD and reach out, connect. Send me a note. I'd love to hop on calls and just chat with folks or, you know, another conferences are happening again, if you see me like, I love to just talk to people I love to learn together. So

Joe Krebs 34:10

yeah, we'll add that to the show page. Perfect. So people can just click on it and

Kevin Callahan 34:15

awesome. Even better, Kevin.

Joe Krebs 34:17

Thank you. Thanks, Joe.

Kevin Callahan 34:19

Take care. Bye.

Joe Krebs 34:23

Thank you for listening to Agile FM, the radio for the Agile community. I'm your host Joe Krebs. If you're interested in more programming and additional podcasts, please go to www.agile.fm. Talk to you soon.