Bureaucracy was once a breakthrough. Today, it’s become a costly drag on innovation, human potential, and business impact. In this episode of The Eric Ries Show, I sit down with Gary Hamel and Michele Zanini, authors of Humanocracy, to explore how organizations can move beyond outdated management models and unlock true human thriving.

Hamel and Zanini have spent years researching and advising some of the world’s most forward-thinking companies. Together, we make the case for replacing top-down control with systems that maximize contribution, creativity, and ownership at every level.

We dive into how to rethink management from first principles, why employee engagement is at historic lows, and what leaders can do to build organizations that unlock the full potential of their people.