Karen: Give your whole team permission to think through that lens and be thinking about okay are we doing these things regularly and it's not pass fail, right? Pat: I would probably say how much time would be worth spending now to ensure that you don't lose a valuable team member as your best employees will leave during difficult times. Karen: You know the beauty is when like as we're preparing for a difficult time, people are a little bit easier to convince that the ROI is worth it but what I can say is you can't calculate it.