Is There a Stigma Around Credit Card Debt?

Do you think there's a stigma around credit card debt? Absolutely 100%. Man, I don't know. It's just so common. But the stigma is proven to me. The stigma is proven by the fact that people are like- Well, don't talk about it. They apologize for it or they try to rationalize it away. Every single, not every 80% of people carrying $12,000 balance on average, I think it's now $17,000 actually. That they're not paying interest on. Oh, yeah, that's not revolving. Okay, that's okay. Yeah. I think that's me from like two, what, probably 2005 to 2014.