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Retrouvez l'épisode en version française ici : https://www.gdiy.fr/podcast/ivan-zhao-vf/

"We try to be not innovative."

That's how Ivan Zhao built one of the most innovative products of this decade.

Notion isn't a spreadsheet.

It's not project management.

It's not a CRM.

Ivan calls it "the LEGO for software".

Born in rural Xinjiang, China, where electricity arrived when he was 8 Ivan now runs a $10 billion company used by more than 100 million people.

At 17, Ivan left China for Vancouver.

At university, three worlds collided: art, philosophy, and computing. That last one led him down a rabbit hole, he dove into the history of the web, then the history of computing itself. There, he discovered a forgotten vision that would become Notion.

But Notion's origin story isn't about disruption. It's about bringing back that vision: computing should be as universal as reading and writing.

While most startups chase feature lists, Ivan spent 5 years chasing that bigger idea. This path nearly killed the company. Ivan rebuilt Notion from scratch three times.

Today, Notion consolidates several tools for companies like Qonto, L'Oréal, and Toyota, saving them time and money.

But the real revolution is happening under the hood.

Notion now spends most of its time building infrastructure that works with every AI model to unlock their full power for all customers.

In this episode, Ivan reveals:

• The mistake that inspired Notion's entire philosophy
• The "sugar-coated broccoli" strategy: how to hide computing power inside familiar tools
• Why Notion's UI took 5 years to become "simple"
• Why Notion doesn't build AI models but uses them all
• How 300 Notion programmers do the work of 3,000

Ivan's path proves that the best products come from understanding history, not just chasing trends.

A masterclass in building products with philosophical depth.

You can contact Ivan on X.

TIMELINE:

• 00:00:00 : The LEGO software that replaces them all
• 00:09:53 : The culture shock: from "work to work" to "live to work"
• 00:27:39 : How art shaped Notion's design
• 00:40:12 : Computing should be as universal as reading and writing
• 00:52:49 : The forgotten pioneers of computing
• 01:01:08 : Great products' secret is rebuilding from scratch
• 01:09:36 : The central brain for your entire company
• 01:21:16 : Is it possible to run an entire company with Notion?
• 01:30:36 : The AI dilemma, which model to choose?
• 01:39:53 : AI agents are revolutionizing software development
• 01:48:18 : Everyone can build their own tools with Notion

We referred to previous GDIY episodes :

• #487 - VF - Anton Osika - Lovable - Internet, Business et IA : rien ne sera jamais plus comme avant
• #487 - VO - Anton Osika - Lovable - Internet, Business, and AI: Nothing Will Ever Be the Same Again

A few recent episodes in English :

• #513 - VO - Jesper Brodin - IKEA - 40 billion in revenue empire with no bank loan
• #500 - Reid Hoffman - LinkedIn, Paypal - How to master humanity’s most powerful invention
• #487 - VO - Anton Osika - Lovable - Internet, Business, and AI: Nothing Will Ever Be the Same Again
• #475 - VO - Shane Parrish - Farnam Street - Clear Thinking: The Decision-Making Expert
• #473 - VO - Brian Chesky - Airbnb - « We're just getting started »
• #452 - VO - Reid Hoffman - LinkedIn, Paypal - L’humanité 2.0 : Homo technicus plus qu’Homo sapiens
• #437 - James Dyson - Dyson - “Failure is more exciting than success”
• #431 - Sean Rad - Tinder - How the swipe fever took over the world

We spoke about :

• Ivan’s photos
• Complex System Theory

Reading Recommendations :

• What Is a Complex System?, James Ladyman

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