Measuring Aversiveness: Evidence Is Limited

In Session 317, I sit down with Dr. Francesca Delia Espinoza to revisit one of the most foundational—but often misunderstood—topics in behavior analysis: eye contact. We explore why eye contact shouldn't be treated as a simple objective, but instead understood within its broader social and developmental context.

Francesca explains how eye contact is better re-framed as "eye-looking," and why behavior analysts need a strong conceptual foundation for evaluating when, how, and why to teach it. We discuss her recent paper in Perspectives on Behavior Science, which encourages practitioners to analyze the controlling variables behind eye contact rather than relying on rote teaching procedures.

We then shift into the role of eye contact in autism development and early intervention. Francesca discusses how deviations in gaze behavior can influence a child's learning trajectory, and why early, naturally occurring social contingencies can make such a significant difference. We also touch on the potential aversiveness of eye contact for some individuals, and how to navigate that ethically and effectively.

Our conversation expands into related research on social media, gaze avoidance, and how adults and children with autism engage differently with eye-related cues online. Francesca also talks about her Substack newsletter, "What Darwin Taught Me," which blends behavioral science with accessible and engaging writing.

From there, we explore her creative work in conceptual fiction, including her "Aura" series from her Substack Newsletter — a not-too-distant science-fiction world where behavior analysts work alongside AI systems that analyze sessions, generate programs, and support day-to-day clinical tasks. This leads us into a broader discussion about the role of AI in applied behavior analysis, including its promises, limitations, and the importance of preserving hands-on clinical expertise.

Francesca describes one of the short stories in the Aura series about behavior analysts who travel to developing countries, only to realize their reliance on technology becomes a liability when the systems fail. It's a striking reminder that behavior change happens in real time, and nothing replaces skilled human interaction.

We close by reflecting on how emerging technologies—AI, automation, and digital platforms—might shape the future of ABA for better or worse.

• Francesca's Substack: "What Darwin Taught Me" (Aura storyline here)
• Stromberg, et al. (2025). Shaping Social Eye Contact in Children With Autism Via Telehealth: A Parent-Implemented Intervention
• Skinner (1986): "What Is Wrong With Daily Life in the Western World?"
• The Craft of Applied Behavior Analysis: Session 181 with Francesca Degli Espinosa
• Eye Contact, Joint Attention, and Autism: Session 238 with Francesca Degli Espinosa
• Cline (2012). Ready Player One (pro tip: skip the movie, read the book)
• The Matrix

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• HRIC Recruting. Cut out the middleman and speak directly with Barbara Voss, who's been placing BCBAs in great jobs all across the US for 15 years.
• The 2026 Stone Soup Conference! This is one of the best values in the online conference space. I'm actually going to be one of the speakers at this year's event, along with a great cast of other characters you're probably familiar with. Save on your registration by using promo code PODCAST26!
• Behavior University. Their mission is to provide university quality professional development for the busy Behavior Analyst. Learn about their CEU offerings, including their 8-hour Supervision Course, as well as their RBT offerings over at behavioruniversity.com/observations. Don't forget to use the coupon code, PODCAST to save at checkout!
• The 2026 Verbal Behavior Conference! Taking place March 26–27, 2026, in Austin, Texas, or livestream and on-demand on BehaviorLive. Presenters will include Drs. Mark Sundberg, Patrick McGreevy, Caio Miguel, Alice Shillingsburg, Sarah Frampton, Andresa De Souza, and Danielle LaFrance will share how Skinner's analysis of verbal behavior can guide the assessment and treatment of generative learning challenges in children with autism and other developmental disabilities. And don't miss the special pre-conference workshop on Wednesday, March 25.