Yeah, I have a very specific situation in mind that I'm not going to go into detail about. I think if you've been

in the workforce for more than a year, you've got a very specific incident in mind. I will say

one of the things I loved about the last traditional job that I had was one of the things I remember we did early on, we read five dysfunctions of a team by Patlyn and June. And I really came to understand how things like lack of trust that he talks about and fear of conflict was I think another one of the five dysfunctions. And so on the team that I worked on, because we had trust, as you talked about, when conflict happened, as long as respect was maintained, conflict was okay. Conflict was actually encouraged.

Yeah, and that's actually my shortcut when I'm working one-on-one with leaders or when I'm in a leadership training and trying to gauge at a psychological safety problem, my shortcut is I'll directly ask the leader, hey, when was the last time somebody disagreed with you publicly? Right? And if it's six months ago, we have a problem. It's usually not, but it's okay three weeks ago. Great, tell me about it. How did it go? Like I'm looking, again, like I said, if you can't remember, that's a huge problem. But even if you can, I'm looking to go, okay, how did you respond? How did they respond? What happened? Because that is when true, what we might call trust, or true psychological safety is built, is in those moments in how people respond. You can do team building activities. You can go do trust falls. You can go hire some outdoor ropes course to take your team out, and everybody feels good. You can do all of that stuff. But until that conflict actually happens, you don't know if all you've built is actually trust or just affinity. I like these people. Yeah, but do you trust them? You don't know that until you've had those conflict moments, and you've seen people respond to those trusting conflict disagreement moments with respect. I don't agree with you, but I hear you. That's what makes all the difference in the world on a team. Such

a good point.