Episode 65: In this conversation we discuss what possibilities exist for re-imagining leadership and the role of a pastor when the "guru", or the "man with the plan" models have failed us. The "pastor as expert/authority in everything" model can treat congregations in an overly paternalistic and controlling manner, as well as fostering a level of pressure and expectation that can lead to personal dysfunction for the leader themselves. As alternatives we discuss the possibility of collaborative models, of leaders as conduits of the stories of a community, engagement in genuine dialogue, and the centrality of empathy and care.