There is a reluctance, though, to just straight up say there is an objective, independent reality. That's the, that's the thing that that'sor even understand thet's find. As long as there is a belief, even with zero sort of actual knowledge about how the planets work,. Even somebody who doesn't, who knows nothing about the planets work and has no hope of ever knowing how the planets work. The question of ther paradimes get us closer to that external reality is a separate one.