Speaker 2
mind, the mind thinks there's a reasonableness to life that is actually absent, isn't it? Yeah.
Speaker 1
Oh, completely. No, it's completely, it's complete chaos.
Speaker 2
I remember when I first heard that part of the message, I, I rebelled against it because the, the inculcation or the, um, well, actually that this, it brings up a good question. Uh, is, isn't there also a sense of changelessness? No. Okay. So the changelessness is part of the illusion. Yeah.
Speaker 2
Oh, and that's what the person is looking for is that changelessness. Yes.
Speaker 1
Something secure. Right. Something, something reassuring, something that can be known. So changing, knowing is changeless.
Speaker 2
But no one changes all the
Speaker 1
time, doesn't it? No, only knowing
Speaker 2
is right. That's what I said, but knowing changes all the time. Every new.
Speaker 1
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When you, when we're talking about knowing in that sense, I think when you talk about consciousness or the, um, what do you call it, the witness? Yes. That is the experience of an unchanging presence, a constant to which everything happens. Right.
Speaker 2
But that's still part of the dream.
Speaker 1
That is the dream. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.