The Divergence Between Objective Measures and Democracy

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John Avlon: We are going from reasonably liberal democracies with broad protections for opposition activity and free speech in which the playing field is relatively even. He says a lot of what's going on is, you know, competition over the rules of a game. Avlon: The dramatic collapses that we saw in a lot of the 20th century are really rare now. This has gone out of style or it's just less frequent.

John Carey is Professor of Government at Dartmouth College and is a co-founder of Bright Line Watch, a research group which monitors threats to American democracy.

In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and John Carey discuss whether recent publications casting doubt on the extent of democratic erosion have any merit; why many Americans believe the charges against former President Trump to be politically motivated; and why, no matter the outcome, indicting a former president may trigger a cycle of retaliatory prosecutions.

This transcript has been condensed and lightly edited for clarity.

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