My guest today is Donnie Maclurcan, founder of the Post Growth Institute and a thinker who played a major role in my own journey. In this episode, Donnie breaks down why money accumulation under capitalism necessarily produces rising debt and inequality, leading to human suffering and ecological breakdown. We also go deep into possibilities for a better future – including the ways not-for-profit business models are quietly succeeding inside capitalism, what a post-capitalist economy could feel like, and what we can do now to participate in a post-growth future.

Thanks to Vista House Marin for providing us with such a lovely space for this shoot.

Follow Donnie on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/donniemaclurcan/

Dive into the work of the Post Growth Institute: https://postgrowth.org/

Read their writing on Medium: https://medium.com/postgrowth

Support the Better Future podcast by subscribing:

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@michaelmezz

Substack: https://substack.com/@michaelmezzatesta

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/16K0dkbk35q0mTslKJJ7z0

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/better-future-with-michael-mezz/id1823942833

Follow the PGI on social media:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/postgrowth/

X: https://x.com/postgrowth

Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/postgrowth.org

Michael Mezz on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/michael__mezz/

The Better Future Podcast on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/betterfuturepod/

I originally discovered Donnie and his work thanks to the Denizen community and podcast. Learn more about Denizen here: https://www.becomingdenizen.com/

00:00 Intro: Planting seeds for the future

01:04 Introducing Donnie Maclurcan

02:38 What is post-growth?

06:37 Capitalism's inherent inequality and debt

10:06 The monetary system and debt creation

18:49 The human and ecological impacts of debt

28:08 Why efficiency can’t solve the climate crisis

30:21 Why inequality is inherent to capitalism

33:39 Imagining a post-capitalist future

37:25 Existing examples of post-capitalist businesses

47:37 Why money circulation is key

51:58 How to participate in post-capitalism now

57:18 The importance of indigenous wisdom

1:06:00 The wisdom of marginalized communities

1:08:32 Collapse and post-capitalism

1:18:28 Conclusion

Host/Creator: Michael Mezzatesta

Guest: Donnie Maclurcan

Editor: Nuria Salgado

Designer: Amea Wadsworth

Sorry I forgot to put on socks before starting the shoot 😅

Thanks for watching episode 006. Lots more on the way.

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