I was really happy to get a chance to have you on the show because I think there are many people out there who are nervous about JavaScript. They know they need some interactivity and they feel that means they have to abandon what they've already learned or what they actually love. And we're going to dive into that. So I think HTMLX plus Python web frameworks is a beautiful thing. But before we get into that, let's just start with your story. How do you get into programming? Well, I've been programming for a very long time now and I started programming in college back in 94 Actually before that I was programming on a Mac and hypercard, which is a very