Origins of the Modern Pronatalist Movement

We react to the wild JRE #2434 moment where Kurt Metzger & Joe Rogan spiral into theories about our family being the real-life inspiration for Dark Shadows (vampires, Illuminati bloodlines, warlocks?!), us being secret billionaires pulling strings with dumb journalists, techno-puritanism as Luciferian AI-worship, and more.

We break it all down: What they got hilariously wrong (we’re broke, not Bilderberg bosses), what they surprisingly got right (Joe kinda nailed our God-in-the-future views), why this is the coolest thing ever, and how conspiracy theories about us are basically fan fiction we secretly love.

Bonus: Our actual family lore, why we’re anti-mysticism/anti-idolatry puritans, the real origin of techno-puritanism, and why we’d happily join the vampire Illuminati narrative if it means more people having kids. 😂

Episode Transcript:

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Hello Simone. We had a big segment on us in the Joe Rogan podcast

Joe Rogan: the collins’s. So first of all, that feminist, if you watch the video, the feminist who’s saying absolute stupid s**t, it’s a little disingenuous. It reminds me of a, of a Ben Shapiro arguing with a stupid college kid, but he won’t argue with somebody who knows anything,

Kurtz Metzger: right?

Joe Rogan: It’s clearly.

They found this dumb b***h to, to put her out there because you could clear up the misconception in five seconds, sweetie. No, no, I’m, I’m not saying somebody’s better or worse.

Speaker 3: It’s humans are genetically diverse. It’s not a bad thing that humans, I’m saying it’s No, no, I’m not saying it’s a bad or, or, or a good thing. I’m saying there is no scientific evidence

Joe Rogan: I’m just saying genetically it’s different just ‘cause you have a different color.

Speaker 3: The genes that code their skin color, their level of melanin production are different from my genes that melanin production.

Speaker 3: You have no idea how infuriating it is to have a debate about you go viral and apparently everyone has seen this, and then have people criticize you for not saying this and not saying that. [00:01:00] When you said literally exactly those things. Even just in the like minute and a half edited clip that was released and did make it through the media filters.

At the very least, Joe Rogan isn’t buying into this and is like, no, this is just regular media people.

Kurtz Metzger: I don’t think they can find someone who’s better.

That’s where I think you’re wrong.

Joe Rogan: Find

Kurtz Metzger: what someone, who’s better at being a journalist. That’s where I think you’re wrong. I think so many of those people are like her, where they’re just indoctrinated into this certain way of thinking and talking and they, they just wouldn’t even imagine saying there’s genetic differences in the races because of course it’s so problem.

It’s so Charles Murray, this, it’s so problematic. You can get canceled for it. So they’ll just spout out stuff that they haven’t researched at all.

Malcolm Collins: Where one of his guests completely crashes out about us and goes on this wild conspiracy theory about our background.

Joe Rogan: the family. If you ever saw, , Johnny Depp being a remake of it with the Visa Vampire Barnabas Collins. Oh yeah, [00:02:00]

Kurtz Metzger: yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan: Dark shadows. Dark

Kurtz Metzger: shadows, yeah.

Joe Rogan: The seventies one.

Kurtz Metzger: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: That’s about a real family. They were, the, their, their supposedly claim to fame was being the first warlocks or some s**t in America with the Puritans.

Kurtz Metzger: Those were supposedly Americans.

Joe Rogan: They’re in an old bloodline family. ,

Kurtz Metzger: That’s that family supposed to be taking place in New England.

That’s where it’s supposed to be taking place. What? That’s the same family.

Joe Rogan: Yeah. The about

Kurtz Metzger: Collins? The,

Joe Rogan: yeah, it’s about them.

You gotta double check that. Royalty. Bloodline. Royalty. And yeah, if

Kurtz Metzger: Dark Shadows was based on that Collins family, that is crazy.

It was Barnabas Collins

Malcolm Collins: And so we’re going to go over this because a lot of people thought that I would have a negative reaction to this. And it’s like, no, like this is the coolest thing that has ever happened. I tried to seed conspiracy theories about me in media for years. Yeah. Like, this is like some kid at school. Let me, let me okay, so you’re in high school, right?

Like when I was in high school, this is the generation where all the girls are into like vampire books and everything like that. And somebody, it’s, by the way, this was part of his conspiracy. [00:03:00] Somebody, somebody is convinced that I am a vampire and. Big rant in front of the entire student body about how Malcolm is a secret vampire with dark, magical powers.

I do not come outta that assembly. People are, you’re

Simone Collins: sitting here being like, oh, yes, that is definitely not true.

Malcolm Collins: I, I cant confirm or deny any of this. So, Hey, Annie. I, I, I heard that a lot of the other girls think I’m a secret, magical vampire man. This is what I dream dreamed about every day.

And ironically, the show is a good depiction of what growing up in the Collins family is like.

15, 15 and no husband, you must put those birthing hips to good use at once. Lest your womb chivel up and die.

Malcolm Collins: So I wanna go into it because I also think it’s interesting just sort of his world perspective, and if any part of his world perspective, like seems cogent to you, I would seriously ask that you sort of, rethink how you see [00:04:00] reality because you’re likely making a lot of mistaken assumptions about like online celebrities and famous people that are leading you to very seriously misunderstand their lives.

And so we’re gonna go into. Whaty gets wrong about us. And what other people get wrong about us as well, because this is something that we’ve seen in other media about us. There’s this big podcast series, what, what’s it called? Simone? The one about

Simone Collins: Ill conceived.

Malcolm Collins: Ill conceived. Yes. It was promoted by the Guardian.

It’s about the Natalist movement, the prenatal list movement.

Simone Collins: It was promoted by the Guardian,

Malcolm Collins: from what I’ve heard. Yeah. But they refuse to cover us. And they’ll say they refuse to cover us. They’ll cover like what are, what are some of the like wider,

Simone Collins: we talked about Balaji, they had a whole episode on BB Milon, Musk Line Stone, a bunch of obviously Christian Conservative influencers.

Malcolm Collins: They talk around us a lot that like,

Simone Collins: it’s very well we pop up against their consent. You know, it, it’s hard to not

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Occasionally mention. So, so this is actually [00:05:00] interesting because it’s something that we’re beginning to see on the left now is the very concept of Malcolm and Simone has become something of an info hazard on the left.

Simone Collins: Info hazard. That’s the word I was looking for, right? Yes,

Malcolm Collins: yes. Like they are, they, they, they basically see what we do and that we do it well. And they know that by touching us, they promote our agenda. And that we are trying to get them to do that. Right? Like, and

Simone Collins: along the themes though of this, this subject and, and what Kurt.

Kurt Metzger talked about in this episode with, with Joe Rogan, they ascribe so much more agency to us, or like, not agency, but like, connection and power to us than we actually have. Like, oh, well we have really good publicists and all this, and I’m like, no, we, no, we don’t. Like,

Malcolm Collins: I wanna, I wanna, yeah, I wanna talk about all that first, because I actually think

Simone Collins: that Malcolm was lying prone on his bed surrounded by trash.

Just taking around on the internet.

Malcolm Collins: I wanna, we’re like asthma gold without the money. Okay. We got

Simone Collins: the, we

Malcolm Collins: got the mice.

Simone Collins: Oh [00:06:00] my, I got two more last night. Basically every time I put out mousetraps it, like for the past two weeks,

Malcolm Collins: no. A quinter. I, I, I mean I’ve gotta set them up in my room, but the kids keep on insisting on sleeping in my room last night, two kids insisted on sleeping.

I’m trying to get the outta the way clo quicker to do, do it in batches now do

Simone Collins: batches.

Malcolm Collins: But anyway, so

Simone Collins: the on a pillow, oh God. And it’s, well honestly, because there’s so much trash and accumulated in your room, it’s kinda like nesting. You just kind of form a trash nest and like,

Malcolm Collins: yes, yes. So what these people said about me is they, they, they said, God, what was it?

It was so funny. So the, the. Podcasts that’s like afraid of us and views us as like an info hazard. And we’re actually seeing this wider leftist circle zone. They basically realize that they cannot fight us with ideas, and the best thing to do is just prevent anyone from knowing we exist because the moment they do, they have lost, which is great.

I love it.

Simone Collins: Well, the other approach that I’ve seen people take is instead of if they, if someone does cover us, they just [00:07:00] don’t say the truth. They just say that we are eugenicists who abuse their children. And that’s not an accurate representation of the truth. No, but what I love about

Malcolm Collins: the Joe Rogan appearance is this guy didn’t even go on something like that.

Simone Collins: He, no, he didn’t

Malcolm Collins: even mention the child

Simone Collins: appearance. No, no, no. But keep in mind, this is, this is the two hour, 15 minute mark in a very long episode in which they talk about altered states and internet propaganda and elites and dolphins. And, but he was, no,

Malcolm Collins: but it was about a 15 minute take. Like,

Simone Collins: I know, but like, they, they had been spending the whole time talking about conspiracies and like, cults and, and like the elite conspiring to do stuff.

So, you know the

Malcolm Collins: point you being, we’re gonna, we’re gonna get to a few points here so that, so, he’s talking about us and and they’re talking about us, and I’ll go over them first because they, they are saners, so we’re gonna start with the saner and then go more insane. They’re like, oh, Malcolm and Simone must have this amazing publicist, like whoever that is, hire them.

And. If you are familiar with us, you know, we don’t have the money to [00:08:00] have a publicist. Like we, we are, we’ve actually worked with publicists in the past. We’ve worked, well, not publicists, PR teams,

Simone Collins: I think three, three years ago. When we raised money to build our school, we hired I think for two months or maybe three months, a PR firm, really great people to try to help us promote the school.

And it produced one press post in entrepreneur and then a couple of, well, I think like AM radio station? No, no, no. That was with another guy on Upwork who produced some AM radio station appearance.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So we got some AM

Simone Collins: radio station. This like extreme small reach

Malcolm Collins: and it well, compared to us today. To US today, I mean, we’ve been in the New York Times, like last year, like 20 times or something.

Like we’re, we’ve been in every, I could

Simone Collins: technically look this up, but I don’t feel like it right now. It’s in the spreadsheet.

Malcolm Collins: But, but basically we’re just constantly in the news these days. Like I, I have a news filter on myself and it just comes up all the time. And I love it. I love it. But the point being is, is we do all this and, and a lot of people who do this, a lot of the [00:09:00] people you see in the news, so like Nick Fuentes for example, probably does not have a PR pitch, right?

Simone Collins: Well, even like case in point, Joe Rogan doesn’t have a booker for example. He just reaches out to people that he finds interesting. Like a lot of these. And that’s what has changed about media now and people don’t really realize it. I think when they come more from legacy media that there are no longer staffs.

We have the technology to do it by ourselves. And I think that’s something that’s really interesting about the difference between channels like ours and a lot of other new media channels and then channels like Philosophy Tube, where there’s still this feeling like, I’m going to do it the way it was done in the past, where I have a makeup artist and I have the lighting and I have a crew and we do a shoot day and we have, you know, a line producer and.

No, no, that this is an old time. People don’t realize that just because this is how it used to be, doesn’t mean it’s the right thing for this format. For example, television shows and movies used to be directed and shot, like stage plays because that’s what people were used to [00:10:00] before. But then we dropped that because we realized like, well, we don’t actually have to do things like stage plays because, you know, there’s so many work possibilities opened up by film and yeah, I think that that’s something, yeah, we don’t, people don’t do publicists anymore, don’t want PR firms anymore.

But the

Malcolm Collins: here is that, and people are like, how do you do this? Like, we have reporters who just call us and why do we have reporters who call us? Because we’ve had other reporters who call us. It’s just like a snowball effect.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And the, the, the article that started the snowball effect was on genetic technology, right?

Like it was on

Simone Collins: Well, yeah, no. So I would say the, the sea crystal of it all and the tactic that I would encourage to anyone else who was like, I, I wanna, you know, sort of get a toe dipped into this, is to be. Willing to talk about something or able to talk about something that is trending and that other people are not willing to talk about.

The reason we first got covered in Bloomberg about polygenic risk score testing was because we were, I think one of two couples in all time that told genomic prediction, [00:11:00] oh yeah, we, we will be customers test testimonials for you. And so when a, when when Bloomberg reached out to genomic prediction and said, Hey, we wanna interview some of your customers ‘cause that’s, you know, we need a human face for our story.

We were there. And very, very few parents are willing to talk about this ‘cause it’s controversial and you get pilled for. And so if you can find that you are willing to talk about something that other people don’t wanna be associated with, it’s too toxic, or that’s just too difficult or esoteric to be an expert on, then you’re in basically.

‘cause people need that.

Malcolm Collins: But I, what I wanted to expand from this is a lot of people they’re like, I wish the prenatal list movement wasn’t bundled with the polygenic screening stuff, you know, the embryo selection designer baby stuff. And what they often don’t realize is that stuff is the only reason the prenatal movement ever took off as a concept.

All

of

Simone Collins: the, the modern non-Christian, like the tech prenatal movement. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Well, well hold on. No, the, the quote unquote Christian prenatal [00:12:00] movement never took off. It was never big. It, it, it took off as a ful movement in like the late nineties. Mm. But it is not a modern phenomenon. And if you look at searches for it, it’s basically nothing.

The

Simone Collins: modernly really good point. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Modern prenatal list movement. And we have an episode on that if you wanna go into like how that movement fell apart and everything. But the modern prenatal list movement literally grew out of a, a, a seed crystal of controversy around embryo selection. Mm-hmm. And that is what led to the media flares that ended up creating enough attention that now we have a sustainable movement in conferences and everything like that.

Mm-hmm. So unfortunately you can’t disin disintermediate them because they were so, one came from the other. It wasn’t that the, we use, and this is something I think that people get wrong. They think that we use the, the, the prenatal list platform to promote polygenic screening stuff, when the reality is, is that we use the polygenic screening platform.

Mm-hmm. To promote and normalize the [00:13:00] prenatal list stuff.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Next I wanna go to what he said about us, because I thought it was really interesting as like a world perspective and it’s, you are. So he said what we did. By the way, he thinks we’re billionaires.

Joe Rogan: Well, I think it’s likely because why would you be hooked in with a secret invite only Bilderberg of tech group unless you were the secret of all these secret societies? ‘

Kurtz Metzger: cause they’re billionaires. Are they?

Joe Rogan: Yo, are they very, you know how dun

Kurtz Metzger: wealthy tech people,

Joe Rogan: dude, Duncan doesn’t understand this ‘

Kurtz Metzger: cause?

Or are they rich at all? Do you know?

Joe Rogan: Oh yeah, they’re, yeah. One, the guy’s a venture capitalist. You know the people that make everything good.

Kurtz Metzger: Right.

Joe Rogan: You know why the doors fall off the planes ‘cause of those f*****g people.

Note here when he’s talking about doors falling off planes, he’s clearly thinking of private equity and not venture capital or pe and not VC VCs invest in startups. , Pretty much everyone likes VCs. There is very little reason to not like VCs. , A lot of people hate private equity or PEs, which invest in or buy [00:14:00] large companies and then downsize or cut costs.

Malcolm Collins: Other articles have called us billionaires. We genuinely don’t know how we’re gonna keep our lights on next year at this point.

Like that is how financially effed we are right now because we don’t have jobs because we lost them due to our advocacy. And so it’s like, what do we do next? That’s why we’re trying to build up the, the chat bot system with our fab.ai. But anyway we, we we’re one of our fans tried it recently and he’s like, oh my God, like this.

It is comical how much better it is in the other systems. And I still just think it has so many improvements it can make with editing and site stability, which I’m working on. I’m working on it gets better every day. But I wanted to, to get to what he said about us. So what he said about us was that we had, using our power and influence found intentionally the dumbest reporter in the world.

Simone Collins: Yes. We, we had, like, we, we had sought her out. We sat down at our evil conference table and we’re like, how do we find the. Dumbest journalist on the face of this planet.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. He’s imagining us [00:15:00] like was the other shadowy Illuminati figures sitting at a table being like, we need to find the dumbest journalist ever.

Get her to our house. And then we went through hours of clips that we had, we had filmed with her and cut out just the one to make her look like an idiot.

Simone Collins: And then like maybe paid her to post it on her Instagram or something. Or like

post

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. To what he thinks we’re trying to promote in a second.

‘cause that’s also really interesting. Yeah. But that like we. Or organized it like that. So for people who are familiar of like what it actually is in our life, we are des generally desperately fielding reports from all incoming. Right? Like you cannot do outgoing reporter advocacy very much. No.

We’ve tried. We tried.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Even like when we go viral, in the past, whenever something would go viral, we’d reach out to all the reporters we know and be like, Hey, do you wanna do this? New story? Never worked.

Simone Collins: Really? No. Never. No.

Malcolm Collins: So all reporter stuff is inbound with us.

Simone Collins: Hundred percent.

Malcolm Collins: Second, we have no control over what they’re posting.

Simone Collins: No.

Malcolm Collins: Right. [00:16:00] Like they come to our house. That was a, that was a day of filming. And that was after about five hours of filming when that one little clip happened.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And

Malcolm Collins: then I have to

Simone Collins: also, I had no idea that, or ni neither of us did that. Paolo was gonna come because we were just speaking with the producer, grace.

So all of my like screening calls, logistics, scheduling, everything was just chatting with Grace. And then, then one day Paola shows up with a, a, a male video videographer and like the, the, that’s it. Like that, that’s our day. Right. We, like, I don’t, honestly Malcolm, I think what, what typically happens, and I think this happened with us and I feel really bad about this.

They’ll come and introduce ourselves and we’ll literally be so kind of overwhelmed by just people being in our house and like, whatever. We don’t even know their names.

Malcolm Collins: I had no idea who this person

Simone Collins: was. I didn’t know who she was. I had no, neither of us knew who she was. So like, not only is it, did we not scout Paula, but we like, literally had no idea who she was and probably never remember her [00:17:00] name for the entire duration of that day.

Much to my profound embarrassment.

Malcolm Collins: But the, but the point being is I, I like it’s important to understand when you see somebody on the news or something like that. They don’t control what’s being shown to you? No. It’s the news station that controls what’s being shown to you, and it’s generally after a long period of filming.

In addition to that, we don’t control, like what pieces are, are like what they’re, what’s gonna go out, what’s being said about us, how it’s framed.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: But then on the top of all this, it was what he thought we were trying to promote was this. He’s like that couple that looked traditional and seemed Yeah.

Simone Collins: What was that?

Malcolm Collins: Traditional views actually has very strange views about religion,

Joe Rogan: The bottom line is these two that are doing it, that are trad.

Kurtz Metzger: Oh yeah. They’re not trad.

Joe Rogan: Yo, they’re, they’re some bizarre athe. They’re called techno puritans in their words.

Kurtz Metzger: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: Some book they think is divinely inspired is a eugenics book from the 18 hundreds.

And I understand what they’re saying as [00:18:00] far as, you know, if let’s say 10 years in the future, they create that AI that is like that dude, that means it has always happened. You can’t think in past or future terms. Okay. So you know, they go, are aliens us from the future? Well, maybe they’re us from the past.

That doesn’t, you gotta think of it as points in space and not nothing with the timeline. ‘cause that’s not really how time works, as you know. Right,

Kurtz Metzger: right.

Joe Rogan: So, uh, dinosaurs, they lived 150 whatever, a million years ago. Think of it as just like miles away instead of time. Mm-hmm. Because that really, if you’re a five D.

You know, either they go three spatial, one time dimension to the fourth dimension. If you are the fifth one, which would be the one above that, that you don’t think about it that way at all. Okay? So if at some point in the, in the timeline somebody invented that, that it has always happened,

Malcolm Collins: which is cool. He actually seemed to understand a lot of our religious views which I, I wanna go into.

Simone Collins: I appreciate that. I do. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Oh yeah. Yeah. I appreciate

Simone Collins: the AI is God. And I’m like, you got it. You got it.

Malcolm Collins: He’s antagonistic to our religious views.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: But he understood our [00:19:00] religious views, which I appreciate.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And, and I don’t think that he attempted to mischaracterize them either. Out outside of the, which was also interesting. So, so first of all, you’ve gotta understand this guy’s background to understand why this all was so weird to me.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So what he thinks is we are like LARPing, as traditionalists to try to incept society with like a weirder agenda. Whereas the reality is, is we would we, that that doesn’t make sense if we engineered this clip going viral because this clip contains nothing but a very generic traditionalist. Oh vibe and a very normal sort of genetics or real message that pretty much any conservative or any sane person is gonna get behind.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So how is that clip going? Viral, pushing our weird religious beliefs or pushing our weird techno whatever beliefs.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Like, it, it makes no sense. [00:20:00] The fact that we in private have other beliefs is not pushed by this clip going viral. Right. It’s, it’s a, it’s a just a completely incoherent world perspective.

Right. I, I, I would need to like incept into the clip these other beliefs.

Simone Collins: Well, maybe, maybe like the idea if, if I’m trying to make this conspiracy make sense, we, we scouted Paola, we got her to film this super dumb clip, then it goes viral and then people love us and then look, look us up just like he did and then fall down the rabbit hole.

‘cause he started this whole, this whole diversion in his conversation saying that he watched that viral clip and then he fell down the rabbit hole of the collins’s. And so that was supposed to be like this gateway drug. This like,

Malcolm Collins: yeah. But here’s the weirder thing about all of this. So you hear all of this and my initial thought was somebody pearl clutching at how weird our religious beliefs [00:21:00] are.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Generally people who do that are Catholics. Like that’s been my experience historically. Yeah. Is is when somebody’s like, how could they have these weird beliefs? They, they, they generally, if not that they’re like. Episcopalian or something boring. Right? Like one of the high church movements, right?

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: This guy was ordained as a Jehovah’s Witness Minister

Simone Collins: Wait. Left the

Malcolm Collins: church and is currently an atheist.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, and, and for a little more color. ‘cause you didn’t really introduce him. Kurt Metzker is a standup comedian. I mean, he’s, he’s, he is most famous for his work on inside Amy Schumer, where he wrote dozens of episodes and won an Emmy award and a Peabody Award for sketches, including, girl, you don’t need makeup.

He’s, he’s also like written for David Chappelle and, and comedy Central roasts and, and things like that. He, he’s a standup comedian. Like a very active, like workforce? No, no, but he does. But

Malcolm Collins: the thing is, is like he’s gawing at our weird religious beliefs and that we’re like not doing Christianity.

[00:22:00] Right. And he’s literally not a Christian. Like,

Simone Collins: well, yeah, but he’s a Christian background, so I could still him be, see him being like, God, that’s not,

Malcolm Collins: not a normal Christian

Simone Collins: background. I rejected God and I know what God is, and it’s an old white man in the sky, you know,

Malcolm Collins: and he hates and, and, and I, I, I’ll note about his Christian background.

He, by the way, hates his time as a Christian. He says that the, the, the Jehovah’s Witnesses stole his childhood and made his childhood miserable, right? Like

Simone Collins: they’re a little rough, aren’t they? The witness?

Malcolm Collins: They are. Rush. It’s not an easy religion to grow up in. But what I’m saying is, is that the only time in his life when he was a Christian.

He effing hates, right? Like, why is he getting mad at us for doing Christianity wrong? And I think what’s very interesting here is I’ve begun to notice this now that I think about it, is the people who complain about us doing Christianity wrong, they are typically not really like intense Christians. They’re typically Sunday school Catholics or atheists like this guy, like [00:23:00] atheist diagnostic types, like this guy who have a conception of what Christianity is from like back when they did it forever ago.

But if you look at people who are like nerds about being Christians, like redeemed zoomer or something like this, or like really nerdy Catholics who we talk about and we, we, we talk to like a lot of our, our Catholic friends, like we get deep into theology and they’re like really interested in it. These people I think are less GFA by our weird beliefs because they know that.

A lot of really nerdy Christians who like dive deep into theology, have really weird heterodox beliefs because you just develop those if you really care about things.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I, I will note that he the only place where he sort of misrepresented one of our beliefs is that we think God is AI in the distant future.

Joe Rogan: So he’s that, they’re atheist, but oh, do you know what they believe in the future? An AI is God.

Kurtz Metzger: Oh, so that’s my religion.

Joe Rogan: Yeah, it’s, it’s, uh, it’s called Luciferian.

Malcolm Collins: And I’m like, well, I mean, I think it [00:24:00] could be, it could have something that is like whatever AI is millions of years from now combined with like a human neural net of like the human population. Like AI could be a component of it. Yeah. But I don’t think that it’s ai. Right. Like, and, and in the same way that I don’t think it is human in, in the way that we talk about humans today.

Simone Collins: I, I give him points for close enough.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I, it’s close. Well, I think that he puts us in the category of people who worship ai, which we are definitely not. Because there are people who do that, who worship ai. And I, I, I don’t think that

Simone Collins: we want to ally with ai. We want

Malcolm Collins: to want to ally with ai, but we don’t worship ai walk hand and hand into the

Simone Collins: future

Malcolm Collins: with

Simone Collins: ai.

Malcolm Collins: But when we, we talk about concepts like God existing in the future and stuff like that a lot of like deep, like, like a lot of Christian people even people who are like really nerdy, like, like researchers and stuff like that, they’ll go into this and they’ll be like, oh yeah, I know ex Christian researcher who thinks that, right?

Like a lot of our ideas as we pre prevent, [00:25:00] present them as a coherent whole. You’re like,

Simone Collins: this is just transhumanist Mormon, or this is just, yeah, whatever.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, they sound really weird as a co cohesive whole, but a lot of the individual ideas, like taken as a piece are something that otherwise mainstream theo theological nerds are aware of, right?

Mm-hmm. Like we just packaged them together in a really weird way. So I thought that that was pretty interesting, the way that he sort of gaws at the whole thing. But he Cs at the thing because he is never really engaged with the communities that study this stuff intensely. He’s only engaged in the communities that are obsessed with you know, this is, this is what is, what is you know, normal to think, and this is what’s not normal to think, right?

Like the Sunday School Christian, as, as we talk about it. Mm. So I thought that was really interesting. The other thing I thought was really interesting is how he thinks about our religious beliefs and where they come from. So he went on how I’m from the Collins family and that Collins family, and I am from that Collins family I’ve talked about on the show before.

Joe Rogan: if you know the history of the Collins family, [00:26:00] but he’s gotta be that one.

‘cause that’s a real important bloodline. Um,

Kurtz Metzger: well, let’s find out if he is. Otherwise we’re gonna get in trouble with him.

Joe Rogan: All right. I mean, techno Puritan sounds a little New England to me.

Kurtz Metzger: It does, but I mean, you’re accusing him of being a part of a notorious family. That might not be true.

Related through Malcolm, uh, related through Malcolm to Dallas’, prominent Collins family. Oh, he’s

Joe Rogan: that kind of Collins,

Kurtz Metzger: the late Jim Collins. Oh, right. Mr. Malcolm, you are right.

Malcolm Collins: And I love that Joe Rogan FactCheck. This was like a AI right?

Simone Collins: With Jamie? His his assistant. His assistant

Malcolm Collins: did, yeah. But he has him do it right? Like we are from like, you know, as we mentioned, like my grandfather with a congressman, like the the, we have an episode on this. Oh, brother. Where art though, is about my direct ancestors.

The free state of Jones is about my ancestors. You know, Braveheart is about my ancestors, but pretty much every Scottish American is so I, I don’t know why that’s

Simone Collins: Well, and sometimes ay a there was one Scottish family that like changed Bravehearts history to try to make themselves [00:27:00] associated with it.

That’s a different thing.

Malcolm Collins: That’s a different thing. But anyway, the point here being no.

You’re descendant from the Bruce. I dunno why? Just a thing. But a and even the book on the Illuminati bloodlines of the Illuminati mentions my family. So like he’s familiar with the conspiracy theories, right? Like he knows the stuff, right? It mentions my dad is one of the leaders of the Illuminati.

So presumably I’m the oldest male of the family. I’m one of the leaders now people who know more deep lore. I was basically kicked outta the family. I lived on my own after the age of 13. I, the family had no money to give me, they had it all stolen from them, this branch of the family. So, and it’s all very public in the record.

So like, it’s, it’s, I was raised in that, like I’ve been to the Bohemian Grove, right? Like, I’m, I’m connected with that scene. It is true that Simone was the managing director. She did not run, was the managing director of dialogue, a secret society found by Peter Thiel. But like, we are connected to all of that, which he mentions, but then he sort of sees all of this and then [00:28:00] imagines.

Like, from that show that I love, I love the show was Reagan, what’s it called?

Simone Collins: Oh, goodness.

Malcolm Collins: It was so good about like everything, the conspiracy.

Speaker 6: Democracy is real. Have some key chains.

Can’t talk about shape shifting reptiles.

Speaker 7: Good morning, Senator. Revenues and, uh, yeah,

Speaker 6: can’t tell people the weather is controlled by Gerald from accounting, or that the Dow Jones is controlled by blood sacrifices.

Speaker 5: Shares of JP Morgan Chase a 14 points Wow.

Speaker 7: Rules, rules, rules.

Malcolm Collins: I’ll edit, but I love the show because Simone reminds me of Reagan. You’re such a like, in that world. That’s the thing. I wanna live in that world. I wanna run the Illuminati.

I I actually had one time a billionaire contact us about putting together a plan to start a real Illuminati. So I like, I’ve even like looked at like, how do you, would you do this logistics?

Simone Collins: Well, like, that’s the thing is I think that Kurt and we and so many other people just kind [00:29:00] of wish that there were people in charge in running things.

And I wouldn’t deny, for example, that we. I don’t know define conspiracy, but we are definitely conspiring to do a lot of things. We’re conspiring to try to save various groups from going extinct through our prenatal efforts. Conspiring

Malcolm Collins: to literally try to take over the future of the human condition.

Right?

Simone Collins: Yeah. Like, I mean, but, but we’re very open about it. So is it a conspiracy for like, this is what we’re doing and then, I don’t know, people point to us and they’re like, it’s a conspiracy. And we’re like, I don’t know, like, you wanna join us.

Malcolm Collins: But what’s really interesting is to think about how his world constructed our lives.

Simone Collins: Mm.

Malcolm Collins: And then he talks about the book, which I love. So, or the, the, the show. Oh, Martin

Simone Collins: of Man. But they didn’t, he didn’t know, he didn’t remember the title of it.

Malcolm Collins: Right, right. But Dark Tides or Or Dark Shadows. Dark Shadows.

Simone Collins: Oh, dark Shadows. Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: dark Shadows, which was this old show I used to love, like, one of the original, like horror shows.

And the family ended, it’s called The Collins. Its, and then they redid it with Johnny Depp. And one, I actually love that. He says, oh, there, the, the show Dark [00:30:00] Shadows is about his family. And, and I do not know if they named it after our family, if that’s why they chose to name Collins. It, it didn’t come up in a brief AI search that they did it very well.

Could have been because our family’s been known for that stuff for a long time. But if you know that the, the, the story of dark Shadows the, the constant refrain or repeat in it is family is the greatest wealth.

Family is the only real wealth you would often remark.

Malcolm Collins: And that’s what I was taught was in my family growing up. Like, if somebody had looked at our family, they’d be like, they’re, and I even remember growing up people called my family the Adam family.

‘cause we would, like, we had this giant like, you know, mansion that had Ivy all on it and we were in like the really nice part of town. But like, I’m like a crazy person. So I climb up on the outside of the house and you can imagine in the nice part of town, the little you know. Bull cut like kid was like the nice, ‘cause my mom dressed me like a super rich, like, posh kid as well with like the, the cute little outfits and everything, but like climbing up on the side of the [00:31:00] house, laughing and like trying to kick the brother off the roof and stuff like this.

They saw us as just a menace. Like,

Simone Collins: and I didn’t fully believe that that ha like was true until we got archival footage of you as kids and literally just,

Malcolm Collins: no. And it happened to be they were interviewing my granddad and then we’re crawling up outside the window.

Simone Collins: Yeah, it was just. Like random footage of it.

Proof. This wasn’t like a, you did it sometimes this is probably like you saw a wall you could climb up, you’d climb up the wall.

Malcolm Collins: Our kids would do it. If they could come on,

Simone Collins: they’d say climb everything they can.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, this is true. But the, but the point here being is that like I actually did, I was in a family that was seen in our community as like weird and crazy and everything like that.

And, and it, it, it was a family that, like the family from, from that show, which was seen that way by the general public also really valued family above all else. Really valued actually being there for each other above all else. So it’s interesting that that’s the horror, right? Like, the, the family that is fundamentally the good guys in that show fighting against darker forces [00:32:00] of evil in the show’s world.

I’m okay with that connection and I’ve always thought vampires were cool, vampires are cool, whatever. Right? Like you wanna thank I we’re vampires. That’s awesome. Right? But. The point I’m I’m making here is that in his world, we sort of come from this background of occultism and dark magic and everything like that, and we’re utilizing this world of occultism and dark magic to secret influence.

And then we’re trying to spread our theology through appearing to be normal and trad and everything like that, right? Like this, our weird techno puritan beliefs are downstream of our, and if you don’t know this and you’re like a new fan, you should go check out the track series.

We’re gonna do more eventually. It just takes forever to film. But because I’m putting together something that could become a real religion one day for other people, like I need to think a lot about it. Go over it

Simone Collins: lot. Well, it’s already a techo. Puritanism [00:33:00] is already a registered religion in the United States.

It is recognized by the IRS.

Malcolm Collins: Which

Simone Collins: a religion, which what

Malcolm Collins: determines if a religion is real or not.

Simone Collins: I mean, yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Anyway, but, but the point I’m making here they took Scientology forever to get there. But anyway, the point I’m making here is to hit from his world perspective, there’s like these deep shadowy you know, secret organizations and everything like that.

And because of our involvement with them, we are trying to incept the public with this weird religious belief. There are two areas where this is really interesting and sort of incoherent, but he also called our religious beliefs extremely materialistic and like Zoroastrian, like you talked about, like a Zoroastrian evil God.

Joe Rogan: which is technically more reman than Lucifer.

I guess you gotta, what’s,

Kurtz Metzger: what’s Reman?

Joe Rogan: That’s the one from Zoroastrianism and , the tech, it’s like. , Heavy materialism, like there’s nothing but the material,

Malcolm Collins: And saying that like, they were like that, [00:34:00] like, basically saying that like, we worship money or something like that. Where if you’re familiar with the way that, that our actual beliefs work, our beliefs are. Of all else. Where we actually butt up against traditional Judaism and traditional Christianity the most is we are rabidly anti mystical, anti-magic, anti mysticism.

Mm-hmm. Anti supernatural forces, anti anything like that. Right. Which in a way is completely antagonistic to this view that he has, that we are trying to spread some form of like dark occultism where we are actually incredibly rigid in the exact opposite direction. Right.

Joe Rogan: Then a lot of these tech freaks who are like, , the things they’re into are so crazy, but they believe s**t like Kabbalah and, , memes and s**t are being sent backwards in time.

Kurtz Metzger: Oh, the kabbalahs are weird ones. A really smart friend of mine gave me that to read, and I was like, okay.

Joe Rogan: Oh, well, it’s a mind control method.

All [00:35:00] these things, all the symbols,

Kurtz Metzger: uhhuh,

Joe Rogan: they’re, they’re overlays for your f*****g brain.

So anyone who has actually watched our tracks or is familiar with any of our beliefs knows that to great detriment to ourselves because we are so fervent in this belief. We are radically anti-kabalism, , which is interesting that he would accuse us of being kabalists.

Malcolm Collins: And he’s even aware of that.

So I find that to be very interesting. Right.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: But the other thing I find very interesting is if you can trust his worldview of like, where. Our religious beliefs come from was where our religious beliefs actually come from. It’s, I think, even more interesting, like the reality of the story is even more interesting and it’s very well backed up by receipts.

If you look at our works over time, if you look at our books over time, if you look at the pragmatic sky, the crafting religion, where we laid out exactly what we plan to do, where we’re like, look, clearly the secular world doesn’t seem to be working a mentally healthy place to raise kids. Therefore, let’s try to construct something better, right?

[00:36:00] Yeah. And so we sit down and we’re like, okay, let’s try to construct a, a religion that’s gonna be healthy for my kids, right? So I, I came up with a bunch of ideas about like, this could be good, this could be good, this could be good. And then. Later we read the Bible and we’re like, oh, this is basically what the Bible already says.

Like, let’s just be Christians. Right? But like our own branch of Christian that interprets it in, in this alternate way, right? Mm-hmm. And that’s what the, the, the, the track series basically is going over is, is this a series of arguments where we start just being like, well, this is why we believe these things.

And then we start reading the Bible more and more and more. And as the tracks go on and on and on, it’s like, oh, like this does not, is is not as it out of sync as the Bible as I thought. Right. So we go through all that, right? And that’s, that’s why we ended up becoming Christians, right? Like we, we started from the perspective of like, what would be good for our kids?

And then we’re like, oh, and this seems to align with this, and then I don’t know how this could happen, supernatural, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And we’re like, I can’t think of an, a more plausible reason to [00:37:00] have these beliefs. But it’s, it’s, it’s not that we’re coming at this because like as a kid, I was raised to be like an occultist or anything.

Right? And I think that that’s really interesting how like, when you try to overly tie everything together or like you try to tie that in to our work with like Peter Thiel who’s like a Catholic, right? Like that doesn’t really, like the two things can actually tie together. Or like dialogue, right? Like.

If you, if you go to an organization like Dialogue or you go to an organization like The Grove and you’re talking with people you know, most people are either gonna be like atheists or traditional Christians, right? Like, why, why would you have like a bunch of people with weird beliefs? In fact, this guy’s religious beliefs appeared to be more unique than almost anyone I’ve met at any of these events, right?

Like, and just think about it, okay? So you’re putting together an organization that’s like a collection of already elite people, right? And you, you put them in a room and a lot of these people spend their entire lives like building up their businesses and everything [00:38:00] like that, but their otherwise normal people, are they gonna have unique religious beliefs?

Like, probably not. They’re gonna have beliefs that align with the rest of the population, right? In fact, I argue if you’re actually looking at like unique. Iterations of Christianity. See our episode on Trump’s. Like, what does Trump believe about metaphysics and religion? Because I’d argue he actually has one of the most unique of, you know, powerful and influential people I’ve met takes on Christianity.

The only other person I know is a really unique one in like our wider circle is Peter Teo. That’s like it. And, and I thought that, that, that’s, that’s interesting, right? Like, but the, the, the, these organizations are not good ways to transfer your religious beliefs, if you understand why.

So imagine I go to like. A conservative, because keep in mind, like a lot of these organizations are more conservative coded, whether it’s the Bohemian Grove, which a lot of people I think is weird that they think of it as like this occultist thing, but they’re like, but conservative politicians go [00:39:00] there.

It’s like, do you think that like conservative Christian politicians are going to something that is like genuinely occultist? Yeah. Like they might be doing like the burning of care and like some, you know, fakey fake rituals, but

Simone Collins: No, but like even the name of something isn’t hijinks a thing that they do there?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: Like, that’s literally like the name of something you would expect at some like conservative Christian summer camp is the hix time. It’s like, go to the forest and run around like Boy Scouts. Like that’s, I don’t know. I just don’t see it as that.

Malcolm Collins: No. I mean, they’re acting like people did at summer camps in the 1920s.

Simone Collins: Exactly. That’s

Malcolm Collins: when they all grew up.

Simone Collins: Yes. You know,

That is like literal, they’re they’re tremendously old.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. The average age, there’s like 86, like they’re irrelevant in terms of modern politics anymore because they’re also old at this point.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Whereas like the really relevant thing these days is dialogue.

Like that’s dialogue or sun whatever Sun,

Simone Collins: sun Valley.

Malcolm Collins: Sun Valley is, is pretty relevant. But anyway, the point being I

Simone Collins: think hereon is, is actually where there’s, well,

Malcolm Collins: hereon is the, the best one these

Simone Collins: days. The [00:40:00] most. Well, because that’s also like where investment is going in tech startups that are going to shape the future.

Malcolm Collins: And, and obviously we’ve been to Heretic Con. I guess we spoke there. We spoke there. We didn’t just go. But I, I mean, heretic is, but I was going to these things. Like I was going, growing up to a Renaissance weekend, back when the Clintons went to Renaissance weekend, back when it was like extremely exclusive to get into so like, I’ve been doing these sorts of things since I was a kid.

But when you get into these right, you’re first, you’re really excited. You’re like, oh, I got into Heretic Con or whatever, and you go

Simone Collins: I don’t think that, I don’t think Kar Con could ever get old.

Malcolm Collins: But, but you, you, and you’ll even hear weird religious beliefs. I went to Peter Thiel’s talk about like the Kaon, right?

It was cool, right? I was like, I was like, oh, maybe some ideas here for techno puritanism. I wish,

Simone Collins: I wish the South Park Antichrist song was used more. I can’t even remember how it goes.

Speaker 10: Peter Teel knows about the anti anti Christ, Peter Teel knows about the crisis. I’m Peter Thiel and I know about the anti Christ. [00:41:00] Let’s learn about the Antichrist today.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. . Yeah. But. I don’t come away from that. And, and 99% of the people in that room don’t come away with that believing what Peter Thiel does about like Catholicism, right?

Mm-hmm. That’s, that’s just a very inefficient way to transfer religious beliefs. Mm-hmm. A, a meeting that you go to once a year where you get to sit in on a lecture, keep in mind your religious beliefs are your physical framework for how the world works, right? Now where do I think you can get transfer of religious beliefs and weird stuff?

Do I think that there are some actual like PDA file networks of like progressives where they have like weird sort of Wiccan beliefs that they do, like ceremonies? I’ve seen enough evidence that I believe, yes, this is a thing that exists. But the problem is, is these people have very different metaphysical frameworks than the type of people who are going to the conservative secret society.

Simone Collins: Well, and that’s the thing is, is I think the reason why you see the Wiccan stuff among very powerful, progressive [00:42:00] people. Is they don’t have the Christian or Jewish or Islamic spells and stuff like just, you know, traditions to fall back on. There’s no God to whom they can pray.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. If you, if you, you have

Simone Collins: to do the weekend stuff because, you know, if they, if they feel like they need a higher power, well, I mean good for forget, but what I mean

Malcolm Collins: already a, a crystals and tarot card type person and somebody says, okay, here’s a new ritual.

Right. You know, you’re gonna be like, yeah, it’s just a new ritual. Like let’s add that to the list. Right. And so you can begin to get these weird culty type things. But if you’re coming at this, like most of the conservative influencers are with people who have very well thought out metaphysical frameworks that are based on.

Usually Christian or Jewish teachings you, you go up and you’re like, here’s this new ritual. We’re all gonna practice together. Everyone’s gonna be like f no, there’s not a new ritual. We’re all gonna practice together. Like it’s, and, and if you wonder like, what, what sort of terrifying stuff do they get up to at these events?

At [00:43:00] Heretic Con you could go and get free tattoos. That was a cool one. But the other one I thought was really cool was we got to Gene edit frogs to be glow in the dark. Yes. Like attitude?

Simone Collins: Well, no, it wasn’t just glow in the dark. You could make it like, I think really big. I think, I think it was it wasn’t glow in the dark.

It was like that they would under luminescent glow luminescent. Yeah. And, and yeah, there was really big luminescent. There was some other cool things, but yeah, it wasn’t, you know, anything crazy.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, it’s, it’s cool. That’s what, that’s what people want to believe and it’s a bunch of people.

Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah. No, what, what? Oh man. They should have found a way to turn the frogs gay,

Malcolm Collins: getting

Simone Collins: that would’ve

Malcolm Collins: slack down and turning frogs gay,

Simone Collins: turning frogs, right?

Malcolm Collins: Like

Simone Collins: that would’ve been, that would’ve been it.

Malcolm Collins: But, but I mean, you’ve gotta understand that these events to be a hereon or something like that, you want to get the, the high profile people coming back.

Mm-hmm. You need to be interesting to high profile people, right? Yeah. Like you need to be worth their time. If I go and I’m running some like X billion dollar company and then it’s a bunch of [00:44:00] weird religious rituals, the moment I get there I’m gonna be like, Ooh, I don’t wanna go back to that.

Simone Collins: Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry.

Malcolm Collins: If I go and I get to see the Protist people having their spiciest talk ever, and I get to see Peter Thiel go up and talk about his views on the Kaon, and I get to, that’s what. Successful people and, and heterodox successful people actually want, is they wanna hear other heterodox successful people talk about their views on things.

Right? Like, you know, I, I wanted to go and meet Roco of Rocos basals and hear about his plan for building a, a giant floating city on ice. And why that’s actually cheaper than building it not on us.

Simone Collins: It was good. It was a very cohesive, I, I, again, I I liked it. His, his, his takes in general are, are fantastic.

Malcolm Collins: Right. I, I know, but what I, what I mean to say is you know, yeah, we, we do go there and get drunk and have talks with Munches, ball Bug or Curtis Jarvin as you’ve seen here. But like, when that happens at an event like this one. [00:45:00] This isn’t our first time meeting Curtis Jarvin, like we already know him well.

Like I I, I consider him a friend of ours. And even, even a family friend, like we know his, his wife, we know his ex-wife. We our, our kids will know each other. Like he’s a cool guy, right? You know? But can you imagine Curtis Jarvin, like, and you’re not gonna get a bunch of people going to one of these if you don’t get your courtesy Arvin and you don’t get your Malcolm and you don’t get your, you know, et cetera.

You need the, the leaders of like the intellectual sphere of the conservative movement. You go to one of these events. You start practicing dark, magical spells. First of all, Curtis vin’s going to go on a, a unhinged rant the moment you try to start something like that. And second of all, everyone’s gonna know because Curtis Yin’s gonna leave the event and write about it.

Right? You know that this is, this is what’s gonna happen because it’s interesting, right? You, you couldn’t even do that. But I thought also the way that he framed our stuff where he tried to furrow like tism [00:46:00] as like gay which like, I, I think what he means by that is. Outside of just, just Pearl Clutchy for him, outside of his norms of conservative culture.

But the other thing to remember about this guy is this guy is in his late third, no, I think early forties. Like mid, no, mid, mid forties. He’s like 43 if I remember. And he only recently got married and he has no kids, so there’s no way he’s gonna be above repopulation rate. And he said other weird stuff, like really weird stuff where I was like, oh, this guy obviously hasn’t been around kids.

Where he said that Charlie Sheen was brainwashed into, and just like if you’re somebody who has had thoughts like this, understand how crazy you look was brainwashed into like weird sex stuff because he saw his parents naked until the age of five. Do you not know that? Like you have to bathe your kids up until the age of five, right?

Like you, you change

your

Simone Collins: child. Well that doesn’t mean that, that your kids see the you naked as a parent.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, it’s, it [00:47:00] would be rare for them not to, you’d have to like completely.

Simone Collins: I mean, I don’t know. Like I grew up around just, well, tons of naked people because I was in California, so everyone was naked.

And like I was really young when like, I remember going to a, like a nudist colony near Death Valley and like seeing some guy playing a grand piano naked in the back of his truck and like of course all like the naked sweat lodge wedding kind of stuff going on.

Malcolm Collins: Right. But, but this is the type of guy

Simone Collins: I’m okay for

Malcolm Collins: me.

I imagine he like has his kids behind like a sheet change into their like swim trunks before they get in the bathroom, shower.

Simone Collins: Well, he doesn’t have kids, but if he did, maybe just his wife would do it all anyway, so yeah, he wouldn’t help. When men say stuff like this, either they don’t have kids or they just.

Have someone else do it and assume that that person would never, but like, I mean, I showered with my mom when I was a kid. ‘cause my mom couldn’t, like, it was just easier for her to, you know, get me cleaned in the shower. When she take a shower. This is a guy

Malcolm Collins: who sleeps with his wife in [00:48:00] pajamas. Like, like, you know, the, the pajamas only come off when sex is about to start

Simone Collins: or not at all.

I mean,

Malcolm Collins: no, but it’s these weird moral constructions about reality has that are come from a position of being from this incredibly sort of pearl clutcher world that I think we’re seeing die out. We are seeing a flare up. And I hadn’t realized this, but I’m realizing it now, is the. Conspiracy theorist is part of the conservative world.

That’s a thing in the conservative world. I go on their shows. Some of them like me, they, they love me because I add information to their conspiracy theory. I know very few extreme conspiracy theorists who are above replacement rate in the conservative sphere. And keep in mind they’re mostly in the conservative sphere to start with.

So you would think they

Simone Collins: have higher, let’s, because in the end, there’s something that’s really, there’s a very high correlation between having an external locus of control and believing in conspiracy theories. Because inherently most conspiracy theories have to do with they, them controlling everything and [00:49:00] you are disempowered or you have this terrible thing happen to you, or you are being controlled, or society’s being ruined because they.

Are doing the thing. So it’s not your fault, it’s not the victim’s fault, it’s their fault capital T. I think that’s the

Malcolm Collins: problem. The other interesting thing is he’s clearly gone through a lot of content on us, and yet he misunderstands very basic parts of our, like even just our agenda. So like he was mad at Tism more broadly, like talking about low fertility rates.

And, and Rogan was like, but like that’s a real issue.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Right? And, and he was like, well, you know, I, it is a real issue, but it’s only being brought up to promote more immigration. And anybody who knows us knows we are not trying to promote more immigration. Right. Like, that that is, it may have been like when we very first started advocating for Tism, ‘cause we were still progressives back then.

We’re like, Hey, maybe immigration could be used to fix this.

Simone Collins: I don’t think we ever said immigration could fix it.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. Yeah. I, I, [00:50:00] I, I, I, somebody might find some clip from like, when we very first started on this, but I’d say four years at this point. Anybody who knows us has known we’ve been fairly anti-immigration.

And our views on that have even matured, where at first we were pro high skilled immigration, and then we even did a 180 on high skilled immigration. Right? Yeah. You know, after, because we listened to our fans. Like this is something

Simone Collins: that Yeah, y’all changed our minds, guys. Yeah. We do listen to you.

And when we’re wrong, we wanna be right. And you guys made really, really good points. Thank

Malcolm Collins: you. Yeah. Like, we’re not audience captured and that I don’t change my mind to pander to fans. Like there’s stuff that, like, if you’ve been following the show for a while, you know, we’ve only become more entrenched in our religious beliefs.

We’ve only become more entrenched in our potentially like antagonistic relationship with some other Christian denominations.

Simone Collins: Well, and, and we, and we persist much to the great pearl clutching of our fans in, referring to the gender pronouns, people generally prefer to be referred by no matter how they were born which they find [00:51:00] extremely New York.

Yes. We

Malcolm Collins: haven’t, we haven’t folded on that issue either, but there’s other issues like the H one B Visa issue we changed their minds on

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: The being like never criticizing Israel

Simone Collins: yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Become much more critical on that stuff.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: We’re, I mean, we’re still pro Jewish and pro-ISIS Israel, like I, I would still call myself a Zionist but I think a lot of Jews would call me antisemitic now.

Right. Like, we certainly get called antisemitic.

Simone Collins: But I mean, you still wanna ally with Israel, you just wanna deal with some of the adverse incentives that are at play.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And I, I think that and that, that literally happened because of someone I was talking to on the Discord, and then they challenged me and they said what was really clear?

She goes, when is it hurtful to the wider party for us to adopt beliefs like this? Like you say, well, we don’t adopt, life begins at conception and people shouldn’t be promoting it because we, we couldn’t even win general elections. Like what about military aid to Israel? Right. Like, and I, and I just thought about it and I was like, that’s a good [00:52:00] effing argument.

Like I should not be pushing that on the wider conservative movement if it is not something that is going to win US elections. And if it’s not winning us lot, like I, I need to really rethink this. Right.

And I, I think that that’s why people follow us. Like I was looking recently. I mean, our numbers aren’t great right now ‘cause we always go down in the winter and then we, we build back up from there.

So, you know, hope, hopefully we can rebuild from this. But like if you look at like short Fat Otaku, right? I used to look at him as being like way bigger than us, a way bigger thing than us, and now we’re way bigger than him in terms of like video viewership, right? And I was really surprised at that.

But I think part of it is that he doesn’t like engage with his fans and update his views based on like, just when he’s wrong about something, right? Like, oh, you have a better argument here. You have a better argument here. And I think people can see that as like, I don’t know, pandering or, or audience capture.

But it’s really not, if you look at like where our views don’t change. Right. The final thing I wanted to, to talk about with him that I thought was interesting is well the, the. [00:53:00] Just sort of, again, you talked about the account that amplified this being a fake Catholic account. Like we had gotten the person who posted this to Twitter to post this to Twitter.

Hmm. Just keep in mind, so I guess I’ll go for a few things here. If something goes viral it’s more likely like, okay, let’s take Nick Fuentes here right now. Is Nick Fuentes being AstroTurf and we’ll do an episode where I’ll go over some receipts that he might be being AstroTurf right now. But I think more broadly what’s happening is Nick Fuentes knows how to play the media.

The media knows when they cover him, it goes viral. And that’s what they wanna do. And it’s the same with them in covering us, they, I wanna play the media. They know when they cover us, it goes viral. And if they go and they interview lineman stone, that’s not gonna go viral. It just won’t. If they go and they interview Catherine Pup, it’s not gonna go viral.

It just won’t. Right? Like it’s, it’s a mutually beneficial ecosystem where we’re both playing with each other. But the person who posted this stupid interview to Twitter did not post it there [00:54:00] because we colluded with them. They are a Twitter user. They want to post things that go viral so they get more followers.

That is why they posted something that went viral to Twitter, right? Like, not thinking through individual motivations and ascribing everything to some sort of like external cabal breaks everything down. A another interesting thing is us getting into dialogue, us getting the job, putting together Schmidt Futures, which is Eric Schmidt Secret Society thing.

We didn’t get, well, that

Simone Collins: doesn’t exist anymore. It

Malcolm Collins: was, doesn’t exist anymore. We didn’t get these because of my family background. Like that was we, we got these because Simone applied for a job at these. And I’m interested in secret societies ‘cause I’m interested in nexus of power in society and like, like the two things are largely uncorrelated outside of, I grew up being aware of this world and being like, Hey, it’s valuable to interact with this world where I think you grew up. Never even primed to think, Hey, who’s running the major secret societies [00:55:00] these days? Like when I

got,

Simone Collins: I just didn’t care.

I think it is a mixture of, you grew up normalizing to them and knowing people in them and knowing people going to them and going to them yourself where you’re like, well, of course I can just walk in the door. And I think most people assume they could never even walk in the door when like, probably if they want somebody to be involved, they could, they could be.

And as long as they’re like not incredibly dumb and then, you know, we had me just apply just like, just ask. And I never would’ve thought to, ‘cause I wasn’t interested in the same way that you were. But once you got me hooked, I was in. ‘cause the conversations are really interesting.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. And, and so I think that like, do not get your brain cooked on this stuff.

Remember, most people in society are wildly incompetent. And I have seen behind every door, the cabals do not exist. It

Simone Collins: something No, we keep saying it would be so nice if they did. It would be so nice if [00:56:00] someone was at the wheel. I would love a conspiracy of sorts, you know? But what, what instead is, is we just have very messy systems.

Well, I can tell you why the

Malcolm Collins: cabals never come to exist.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: The reason why the cabals never come to exist is because the types of people who could put them together. So suppose Peter Thiel wanted to start a cabal, right? Mm-hmm. If he wanted other billionaires at his level to come in and join in that cabal that he started, well, what, how does he want his cabal to be?

He’s probably gonna want it to be Catholic. He’s gonna want it to have some of his religious ideals, and they wouldn’t want that. Right? So they’d say, no, I’m not gonna go to that. Right? So,

Simone Collins: I mean, one, one thing that, so what, what Peter Teel can do is empower and fund and donate to people who seem to be aligned or whose incentives align with things that he wants.

And, and I would say that there are some instances in which you get kind of a critical mass of people who want roughly the same thing, dominating powerful organizations like Antinatalists at the [00:57:00] un. Like there isn’t necessarily a conspiracy, but there’s a decent number of them. Al also like this period of, of extreme liberalism within higher.

Echelons of the Catholic church like that happened. I don’t, I don’t see that as a conspiracy. I just see that as like a critical mass of people who have a certain affiliation dominating an organization. And that can be incredibly influential, but it’s not the same thing.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. But I loved, I loved this, I loved this.

Shout out Monja Rogan. He follows us on X, so we reached out to him, seeing if he’s willing to do a show with us.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Thanks to everyone who pointed that clip out to us. ‘cause we were,

Malcolm Collins: I would never have known. Yeah.

Simone Collins: And it was, we’re, we’re both So no. To the grindstone right now, we’ve basically no idea what’s happening if we’re, it’s not on like one of the few things we check to look for podcast fodder.

So Thank you. We, we live in a hole. Yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I would not know that. We had been given this amazing shout out. I loved it. I, I hope entire communities form creating conspiracy theories about me. That is what [00:58:00] I, I want to be a topic of conspiracy theory websites. I want them to believe, I want to narrative where like, I grew up in this Illuminati family, and then I was like kicked out of it because like, oh, I wasn’t going along with whatever they want.

Like why, why was he kicked out? Why was he expelled? Oh he must have been dangerous to them. And then he becomes like this figure, and like,

Simone Collins: I mean, it’s not untrue. I think a big theme of your family is they are aspirational normies, who in the end are just, you know, they’re every, they’re, they’re interesting people who like really want to seem.

Catalog, their runway wearing catalog masks, you know, and you’re not, you’re just willing to be

Malcolm Collins: runway.

Simone Collins: Runway.

Malcolm Collins: No, but, but the, the it’s interesting because that’s a cool narrative. Okay. So Guy grew up in the Illuminati was slated to be one of the heads of it at the oldest male of the Collins Line.

Simone Collins: Oh.

Malcolm Collins: That it, the, the Collins line ends up pissing off the Illuminati in some way, or he ended up pissing them off in some way. And so they get cut off, all of their money is taken away. And then [00:59:00] they go after him. ‘cause it’s clear that the powers that be want to destroy my life, like, we’re constantly being attacked in the media.

So they, they’re, they’re going after him vigorously. Well, well, it’s

Simone Collins: not, not working. Like we’re unemployable.

Malcolm Collins: We’re unemployed and unemployable right now. Right. You know? So I get viciously attacked every day. And then. And then but I’m, I’m rating this crusade on who is it? An anti Illuminati crusade.

I mean, let’s say it is. Right? And now I’m, I’m, I’m building forces through becoming a part of the organizational forces of all of these conservative leaning secret societies to, to piece together a, a counter resistance to the Illuminati. Right. You know, that’s, that’s the, the narrative, right? Like that’s so cool.

And vampires like the Collins VA vampires is actually vampires

Simone Collins: and vampires.

Malcolm Collins: We just don’t tell you. Because I,

Simone Collins: but I mean, you could see his whole like, web coming together of, look

Malcolm Collins: at the way you

Simone Collins: Vampire Collins is Peter Thiel, blood Boys like Illuminati confirmed. They’re all the, the blood and the conspiracies and the tech people and [01:00:00] the tism and the religion and the vampires,

Malcolm Collins: but.

One thing I hope that they remember is, is, is our religious beliefs. Like if we fall to anything, we are closer to the fanatical witch hunter than we are to the occultist. Right? Like,

Simone Collins: yeah, we’re teop puritans, we’re against idolatry. I, I can’t look at even a cross necklace without thinking internally. Idol.

Idol.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

It’s,

Simone Collins: it’s, it’s intense.

Malcolm Collins: We’re, we’re against any any religious iconography we’re against any, like, it’s, it’s very much we’re in the opposite direction. Mm-hmm. But I want to like we need to come up with rituals that would still be scary to them, but are like anti idolatry rituals or something like that.

You know, where we, we get our puritan hats and we’ve gotta get a witch hunter hat for you, Simone, so people can, because you already dress like a vampire witch hunter or, or a vampire. Look at this, look at this. You’re a vampire. It’s

Simone Collins: harder to bite ‘cause of

Malcolm Collins: that, but you do that to hide your bite marks.

Simone Collins: Oh, ah, of course. Yes. That too. Yes.

Malcolm Collins: Anyway, I love you. [01:01:00]

Simone Collins: This. Me too. This was a

Malcolm Collins: treat. This was a treat for us.

Simone Collins: Oh, oh yeah. The Collins. The Collins. Even in in Twilight Conspiracy coincide. No, it’s the Collins. The Collins

Malcolm Collins: connect the dots, people. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Decks, vampires. Mm-hmm.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And to join our family, you had to do all these dark rituals, obviously,

Simone Collins: which well, we’ll, we’ll work

Malcolm Collins: that out.

We’ll figure out sacrificing people. We suspected to be witches.

Simone Collins: Oh.

Malcolm Collins: Because they were wearing religious iconography. You know them, you know the way it works.

Simone Collins: I love you. I mean, I, I, I have just we’re probably sacrificing some chickens now. They survived. So, actually, did one not make it? The chickens that I’m allowing to, to free graze right now, kind of sacrificing chickens.

Not sure. They’ve, they’ve done so they’ve done so far pretty well. They’re really happy, so I feel better.

Malcolm Collins: Are they still pecking at each [01:02:00] other?

Simone Collins: No. Well, it was just that one. She was being bullied and I felt so bad. But now that they like have been given a ton more space, she seems to be a lot happier.

But she’s alone. The other one’s all graze together and she’s just off by herself. Rummaging away, but happy, so.

Malcolm Collins: Okay.

Simone Collins: I know. Well,

Malcolm Collins: I love you Simone.

Simone Collins: I love you too.

Malcolm Collins: You are very sweet.

Simone Collins: Weirdly, I think that that’s Maduro. It’s like Maduro.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, what do we named Maduro?

Simone Collins: Yeah. Maduro was being, was being, you know, packed by Che.

Malcolm Collins: Do our, do our chickens predict political events? Should we be doing

Simone Collins: I kind of, I mean, witchcraft though, we can’t, we can’t abide by that. We can’t Oh,

Malcolm Collins: yes. Witchcraft. That is actual witchcraft.

Simone Collins: Yeah. You know,

Malcolm Collins: we gotta hunt that out.

Simone Collins: But meanwhile, like on the other side, Stalin and, and, and Lennon, Trotsky, they’re all doing great.

So I don’t [01:03:00] know what’s up. I don’t know what that means. What, what can we divine from our communist chickens? Who knows?

Malcolm Collins: I, I am just so happy that dark shadows is real. Me too.

Simone Collins: And that,

Malcolm Collins: that’s my family because there is no greater wealth than family.

Simone Collins: Yeah. All right. I’m gonna end the recording. Which. Octavia and I this morning were talking about geography. I was trying to get him started on that, realized it would be really helpful if we had a globe. So he took the one from your room at my advice and immediately just starts only wanting to learn the names of countries and continents.

‘cause he is like, what’s this? I’m like China. He’s like, okay, well we’re gonna take over China and make it America and what’s this Australia? Okay. And we’re gonna take Australia. And it was just this. Intuitive imperialism, just like,

Malcolm Collins: yeah, no well, so we were going over American history today as well.

Simone Collins: Oh yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And I was going over [01:04:00] some videos on American

Simone Collins: history, so that’s what happened when he got away from me and went to your room. He was just like on here, but it was three hours later, so that was pretty good.

Malcolm Collins: And he was like, okay, so, are we gonna like take over this place? Are we gonna like, because we were going over like how America expanded.

And he goes, oh, and we took over all these other countries. Oh boy. And I was like, well, they weren’t really countries at the time. But there were people living here. You know, that that was a thing which he was very excited about getting, getting to expand, watching the map expand as the, as the story went on.

And I sent him off with a story about World War ii. So we’ll see.

Simone Collins: Oh, well, Dean loves the military. Honestly, my biggest incentive to get him to keep going forward with learning is I’m like, you’re never gonna be able to join the Marines. If you can’t do math and read well, you’re never gonna learn how to fly a helicopter.

And now thanks to that one person who commented, you know who you are. That Helicopter. Helicopter is a Bosnian song. I found a version of it on YouTube that just has helicopter footage on, I think it’s like from a Rambo movie or [01:05:00] something.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And he loved it.

Simone Collins: Now that is the incentive to get him to finish a new homeschooling lesson.

I’m like, I will, I will play the Bosnian song for you. If you finish another lesson, you play

Malcolm Collins: a Bosnian song about helicopters.

Simone Collins: Helicopter.

Malcolm Collins: No. You know what got me today is the comments on yesterday’s video were so angry. Like the top voted comments were like, this is horrible. Rage bait. Like saying that there are feminism or, or feminist countries have a high fertility rate is like saying that there’s which deserts have the most water?

Right. And and the funny thing is, is like. Actually that’s entirely wrong. And that the, the premise is not only backed up over time if you look at the baby boom, it happened at the boom of the first feminist movement. And, and it happens at different times in different countries based on feminist movements, which is what we talked about in that episode.

But you see it between countries was like America having higher fertility rate than Latin America, much more gender equality or Northern Europe having a higher fertility rate than [01:06:00] Southern Europe. Or and somebody was like, well, look, these are just wealthy countries that can afford to pay women more and that’s why they have more kids.

And I’m like, that’s factually untrue. Like one of the highest fertility rates in the developed world is America, which gives some of the lowest amounts of cash benefits for birth.

Simone Collins: Whereas, yeah, because one person’s useful comment, and I’m gonna see if I can do a whole episode on this, was. Oh, I wonder if there’s a correlation between the wealth, the rise of the welfare state and the drop of fertility.

Basically like when you didn’t, you no longer needed your family to, we may have already done an episode on this. Now that I’m thinking about it, I did. But if you,

Malcolm Collins: if you look at the point I was making is if you compare with South Korea. Which is hugely gender unequal, but offers giant cash payments for having kids.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Much lower fertility rates. So it’s like, it’s, it’s weird. I, I, and I think that these sorts of things are important. When an idea challenges your preconceptions that deeply, it means that your understanding of reality is fundamentally wrong. And that’s a really exciting thing to jump into for me.

Yeah.

Simone Collins: When you get offended, when you feel offense, it is the sign that something is [01:07:00] incredibly threatening your worldview. That is a good sign to dig in because if you’re wrong, don’t you wanna be right.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, I mean

Simone Collins: it’s very, the ultimate cuck status is, is being wrong and not being willing to correct yourself.

Malcolm Collins: I agree. Yeah. That’s like what the word cuck was designed for that and destiny. But no, PI Morgan is the new mega kuck these days. Everyone makes fun of

Simone Collins: what happened to Pierce Morgan?

Malcolm Collins: Well he had that embarrassing interview with Nick Fuentes where he just got Absolutely.

Simone Collins: Have you had sex as an unmarried Catholic?

Malcolm Collins: Well, he made fun of, yeah. Made fun of Nick Fuentes for that. And then everyone pointed out that his

Simone Collins: wife is, no, we’re like, this is the, the rise of the male virgin influencers. ‘cause the kid who did the Somali daycare, the Mormon kid who did the Somali daycare brought so cool Virgin

Malcolm Collins: Mormon. But as I’ve heard from inside sources, Nick Fuentes is not remotely a virgin.

Simone Collins: Well,

Malcolm Collins: an act he puts on. Or

Simone Collins: still, I mean, what matters is what people. Perceive not what’s real.

Malcolm Collins: Right. Well that’s, that’s true. You know what you’re, what you’re selling, right?

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: [01:08:00] Also look at Nick Fuentes and hear him talk and and he does not come across as the type of guy who didn’t get laid in college.

And he didn’t develop this work extreme ideology until later. He, he comes across as somebody who would be very good at coming up to people, very good at talking to random people, and that’s really all you need to,

Simone Collins: but it seems that his early career was very much focused on online content creation and it can be really hard to be good at that and also go out and have a social life.

So I could really see a world in which he just never got around to it. He could have done it if he cared, but I don’t, maybe he didn’t care that much about it. I mean, a lot of, I mean, it does, I guess, right? Also,

Malcolm Collins: if he is actually same sex attracted, that’s a very easy way to stay celibate, even if you otherwise would be good at getting girls.

Simone Collins: There’s also that. Yeah, there’s also, that is

Malcolm Collins: if you don’t approve, that was in yourself.

But anyway, I’ll get us started here.

Speaker 2: You’ve said things like black women are biologically different than white women. They, they, they, yes. They have, uh, different fertility windows. They have a higher rate of fertility complications, [01:09:00] 50%, but there’s no scientific evidence to prove that. A black woman and a white woman are genetically different, right?

This is like, what are you talking? No, they’re no, no. Like literally, there are genes that code for their skin color. There are genes that, again, this is, I mean this is like government data. This, this is Emmy, right? This is the National Institute of Health. This is an American medical association. Like there, there is no scientific evidence to prove that, and that’s a big problem, right?

Because there’s no scientific, and that’s why I asked like IQ differences. Black people are genetically different from other populations. Yeah. I’ll say that again. There’s it, it, there is at least there is no scientific evidence to prove that. Right. And as people that No, no, no. I’m, I’m, I’m sorry. I’m stating Do you wanna ask an AI if there’s scientific evidence to prove that?

Speaker 3: No. I wanna ask on, on. Factually incorrect. It’s humans are genetically diverse. It’s not a bad thing that humans, I’m saying it’s No, no, I’m not saying it’s a bad or, or, or a good thing. I’m saying there is no scientific evidence and I’m saying that is a factual, he saying that there [01:10:00] is scientific evidence, there is scientific evidence, there is overwhelming scientific evidence on in this basic.

No, no, no. This is like saying the sky’s not blue, like it is genes that code their skin color. Mm-hmm. Right. Those genes are obviously different in them than they are in us. How is that Not science. That’s just like a basic fact. The genes that code their skin color, their level of melanin production are different from my genes that melanin production.

And that’s precisely why I was asking this question. ‘cause I think for some people that do believe like you, that people are genetically different. That has historically been used to promote racial hierarchies. Right. And that’s why I am asking you because, but so what do.

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