I can imagine that it could succeed, and some early signs of it, I think, are actually there. The dialogue we're seeing on climate change has changed because of the voices of civil society getting up and saying, enough is enough. That is what we need now on speed, if you like. As I said, I don't think they'll succeed, but I don't know they will fail. It's much more where I see this governance change coming from,. not some benevolent, great and good bringing about the changes.

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