What’s up folks. We’ve got a fun episode today. If you’re a regular listener, you’ve heard me mention an article that’s been living rent free in my head for a while now.

Casey Winters, the former CPO at Eventbrite and an Instructor at Reforge, wrote an article titled “The Problems With Martech, and Why Martech is Actually for Engineers”. I’ve asked a lot of recent guests what their thoughts were on some of the arguments raised in the article. So today we’re going to respond to his claims.

Summary: Should you buy a 3rd party martech solution or build your own in-house tool, the answer is almost always buy. Let your in-house engineers focus on product and data while leveraging the cutting-edge solutions and support offered by specialized martech vendors. Unless you’re planning on building a martech company, leave the martech to the experts. Homegrown tools aren’t appealing to marketers, they’re hard to scale, most have a shitty UI and it’s not a recognisable martech tool you can add to your resume. Not only are homegrown martech tools not appealing to marketers, they are even less appealing to engineers. Engineers can’t stand the chaos of marketing and effective martech implementation requires collaboration between engineers and marketers, highlighting the need for cross-functional translators and disproving the claim that martech is actually only for engineers.

Martech Has Continued to Explode as a Category

So the article we’re debating was written in 2019, that’s 5 years ago. That’s a boatload of time in martech so we can’t fault the author too much and I respect his bold claims. He starts off by stating:

“I hate martech, and think martech will decline as a category, and most martech businesses will not be very successful.”

Now we could spend a whole episode disproving this prediction… but obviously we have 5 years of hindsight.

But it is worth mentioning that he made this prediction on the year (2019) where the martech landscape exploded past 7,000 tools. Pretty bold to claim that it will decline as a category given the meteoric rise of tools up from only 350 in 2012. Scott Brinker recently released the state of martech in 2024 report which his team says they’ve seen the “largest number of new apps added to the martech landscape in the 13 years they’ve been curating it: net new growth of approximately 3,000 new tools.”

We’ve crossed 13,000 tools, nearly doubling the landscape from 2019 when Casey made his “bold prediction” that martech will decline as a category.

Number of tools isn’t the only way to evaluate whether martech has declined or not.

I’m not a big fan of Gartner reports but if that’s a more trusted source for you, they reported that in 2023 client organizations spent over 1/4 of their marketing budgets on technology. In terms of VC investments, LUMA reported a steady rise in martech acquisitions in Q3 of 2023, averaging over 40 per quarter, alongside substantial capital inflows into new ventures. This financial backing underscores confidence in the industry's future​​.

Okay… so Casey was wrong about martech declining as a category. But he did have some interesting arguments about why.

His main thesis is that: Martech faces decline due to in-house engineers who are increasingly handling tailored solutions in-house, and the success of vendors hinges primarily on serving those engineers, not marketers.

I’ve asked 8 recent guests on the podcast to read Casey’s article and share their thoughts.

What’s your take on this? Is martech actually for engineers?

Homegrown Marketing Technology Isn’t Attractive for Marketers or Engineers

Martech Just Isn’t that Appealing for Most Engineers

Vish Gupta, Marketing Operations Manager at Databricks shared her perspective on whether martech is truly designed for engineers, challenging pretty much every single one of Casey’s viewpoints.

She started by expressing her disagreement with the idea that martech will decline due to competition from in-house engineers and platform limitations. "I don't think martech is the sexiest thing for an engineer to do," she noted. Vish argued that talented engineers building martech are more likely to work for CRM companies to enhance their products rather than find in-house martech development appealing.

Vish explained that building a CRM in-house is often not the best approach. She emphasized that knowing popular systems like Customerio, Marketo, and HubSpot adds more value. She questioned the practicality of finding the right talent for in-house solutions, given the complexities and specialized skills required.

Regarding the idea that successful martech companies cater primarily to engineers, Vish disagreed. "Martech teams are actually part engineer, part product marketer, part IT person, part biz ops," she said. She believes the value of an operations professional lies not in owning and maintaining tech but in resolving business problems by aligning the right people, technology, and tools to accelerate pipeline generation. The engineering work in martech spans across data, data engineering, IT, and business operations, but this is just one aspect of a martech professional's role.

Vish also questioned the notion that the rise of in-house engineers creating tailored solutions for their companies will lead to a decline in martech. "Just because you can, should you?" she asked. She emphasized the importance of a good quantification model and total cost of ownership (TCO) analysis when comparing in-house engineering teams to martech solutions.

She highlighted the challenges of integrating customer and product data in a compliant manner, which often requires a holistic approach. "It's not just your martech stack; where's your customer data living? Where is your product data living?" Vish noted. These challenges often make martech an operational project rather than just a marketing function.

Ultimately, Vish believes that martech will never be just for engineering. The value of a martech professional lies in understanding what marketers want to achieve and enabling them to get there. "The value is being able to see this is what the marketer wants to do, and here’s how we can enable them to get there and measure success," she explained. This holistic view is crucial for martech to function effectively, a perspective she feels engineers alone may not fully capture.

Key takeaway: In-house martech development is off-putting for most seasoned marketers. The preference is usually with popular systems like Customerio and HubSpot. Also, Martech just isn't that appealing to engineers. So martech can’t just be for engineers, it requires a blend of skills from marketing, IT, and operations. The real value of martech lies in enabling marketers and measuring success, a role not easily filled by engineers.

Engineers Can’t Stand the Chaos of Marketing

So far we’ve uncovered two themes: Marketers don’t find homegrown tools that appealing and engineers don’t find martech sexy. But why? Why isn’t martech appealing for engineers?

Let’s hear from the legendary Sara McNamara, former Senior Manager, Marketing Operations at Salesforce.. Her answer stemmed from the complexities and cultural challenges of integrating engineering into marketing operations.

Sara began by acknowledging the trend of engineers becoming more involved in creating custom solutions for marketing. However, she expressed skepticism about marketing operations teams becoming predominantly composed of engineers. She explained, "A lot of the engineers I've worked with cannot stand the chaos of marketing."

Engineers typically prefer clear requirements and stable projects, while marketing often involves rapid changes and freque...