Courtland Dahl, a leading expert in mindfulness meditation and contemplative science, joins Andrew to discuss his work bridging science and spirituality. He emphasizes the importance of cultural translation and the integration of scientific insights into meditation practices. Dahl highlights the Healthy Minds app, which uses data from 200+ practices to show that even short, active meditations can significantly improve well-being, with improvements of 20-30% in just a month and up to 50-60% with long-term use. He also discusses the need for modern adaptations of traditional practices, balancing comfort and discomfort, and the role of compassion and curiosity in navigating contemporary challenges. 

Cortland and Andrew delve into the role and significance of shamatha (stability) in Mahamudra and Dzogchen traditions, noting that while it is foundational, it is not the end goal. The conversation highlights the debate within these traditions about the necessity and extent of shamatha practice, with some arguing it is unnecessary. They emphasize the importance of nature of mind and bodhicitta, suggesting that these practices provide stability and should be prioritized over shamatha. 

They also discuss the potential pitfalls of meditative experiences (nyam) and the distinction between nirodha (cessation) and nirvana, concluding that the view one holds during practice is crucial.