project managers take on large initiatives that have a distinct beginning and an end. There's also a role called product management, predominantly responsible for application development. Those people use techniques called agile or scrum or devops. Ah, so for my perspective, that's really no different than a project manager, just with a focus on a different subject matter. And somewhere along the line we've figured out that leadership in it of itself is a changed discipline. So ultimately our goal is to provide services to organizations where we drive their projects, optimize their product pipe lines, help them stick change initiatives or enable them to do this on their own.