And so you just start to see holy moly, you know, we're acting like like the fail like like children are potted plants and you put them on the shelf and your water most of a while, and they're gonna be fine. It doesn't matter how many caregivers they have or you know, whether mom and dad switch out their partner and some million times during their childhood, we're treating this all in such a cavalier manner. And so I as my children aged and we did foster care for a while, you know, so we have all that kind of experience in the mix too. I started to see that this was maybe my new vocation, you know, once the kids were launched from the home, that I could use the training that I have and the skills that God gave me to shed this type of light on these type of questions. And I have to say, you know, you guys what we're up to, Caleb, I will tell you, the Ruth Institute will never be out of work. We might not always get paid for our work, but we will never be out of things to talk about, you know, because it's endless at this point.

Yeah. And that, I mean, that really does bring us to the topic of today's show that listeners probably clicked on, which is the sexual revolution and its consequences. And you've touched on it a little bit here, but I think it'd be good to sort of ask, ask the question, what is the sexual revolution? People have ideas from maybe a social or historical political background about what the sexual revolution is. I think in some, there's some basic definitions out there too, about sort of the norms of public sexuality, changing and things like that. But in your books, you give a much more comprehensive sort of definition. And I think for Christians, which would be a much more frightening definition, which is that there's some sort of system at play here. It's not just a social accident or social progress towards some different sexuality.

Right. Right. So I do find the sexual revolution as basically being three interlocking ideologies. And before I spell these out, I want to just mention that I came up with these over the years that I was defending marriage. So starting in 2008, the year I founded the Ruth Institute, I stumbled into Prop 8 because it was happening in my backyard. I was living in San Diego at the time. Proposition 8 was the California ballot measure that said that amended the California Constitution to say marriage is the union of a man or a woman. That all about started in San Diego. I didn't really want to get involved in gay stuff. In fact, I don't know anybody who wants to get involved in gay stuff. But I didn't feel like I could sit it out while this debate was going on right in my backyard because I could see I could I only could intuit it. You know, I didn't fully see it, Caleb. But I could I could intuit that that if you redefine marriage, you were going to end up redefining parenthood. And the net result of that was going to turn out to be harmful to children. So over the years, and it was literally years, well, I was out and about debating, like, like, you know, at least once a month, sometimes once a week. And I kind of refined these points, you know, to kind of figure out, well, what is this all about? Why are they so committed? And why am I so not committed? You know, why do I? Why do I continue to think this is really going to be a disaster? So all of that is to say I broke it down into the kind of the three big ideas that seem to me to be driving that ship and driving a lot of other things. And those three big ideas are the the the architects of the sexual revolution have a vision for society. You know, they have a and I kind of call this the sexual constitution. There's a Christian sexual constitution that establishes the rules of the game as to who's allowed to have sex, when you're allowed to have sex, when you're allowed to reproduce, what does it take to get married? All of those type of how, what do you look for in a spouse, you know, all those type of things, there's every society has rules about that. We're kind of pretending we don't have any rules, but every society has rules and a philosophy around that kind of stuff. And the Christian sexual constitution is pretty much shot, it's gone, and it's been replaced with the revolutionary constitution. And the architects of that new view of human sexuality, they have three big ideas. First big idea is that it's a good thing and a good society should separate sex from babies and do everything possible separate sex from babies. And I call that the contraceptive ideology, which is separate from the pill. You know, a lot of times people will say the pill changed everything. And I want to say the pills in an inanimate object, it didn't do anything. We did something with the pill and with the ideas we created around it and so on. So that's one point separate sex from babies that'll make us happy, that'll be good. And second point is do everything you can to separate both sex and babies from marriage, marriage is outdated, marriage is oppressive, marriage is unnecessary. I call that the divorce ideology. And when we talk about the divorce ideology, we don't just mean divorce proper, but other other practices, other social practices that separate that destabilize the relationship between children and their parents. Okay. So it could be unmarried parenthood, could be third party reproduction, where you purchase a sperm or eggs, something like that, which is a radical separation of a child from one parent. So those are the first two. Then the third one is the gender ideology, what I call the gender ideology. And that's the idea that a good society should do should view the sex of the body as being somehow unimportant. We should be able to overwrite the sex of the body if we want to. So early, early on when I first started talking about this, I'm thinking about feminism. I'm thinking about homosexuality. Now we have the trans thing in the mix, which is an even further extension of that idea. And so the early feminists, the feminism that I grew up with in the 80s and stuff, it was all about men and women are really the same. And any differences between men and women should be wiped out using the force of law. Okay. And then you have the whole homosexual movement, which is saying the sex of the body is irrelevant for reproduction. It's irrelevant for your choice of sex partner. And now we have the trans movement saying, it's just irrelevant. If you want to change it, you can, you know. And so all of that, I refer to that broadly speaking as the gender ideology. And that challenges, you know, nature, reality, science, and it in a very fundamental way, but we've gotten used to a lot of the parts of it, you know. And so you take those three things together. And what you end up with is a worldview, which says you get to do anything you want sexually, and nothing bad will happen. Nothing bad will happen to you. Nothing bad will happen to anybody around you. All those things that were telling you, no, no, no, no, including the Christian Church, of course, that was all unnecessary taboos. We have to outgrow that and so on and so forth. That to me, that's what I call the sexual revolution. So you're opening shot, Kaitlyn, it's about sexual promiscuity in a way that's right. Right. But there's more aspects to it and it's in it's deeper than that. So that's how I would start.

Yeah, and you it was you go for go for it

guys. I imagine it was interesting to me. I'm just keep talking. Interesting to me, I just finished your book as I was driving to Arkansas here, which was great. I had some questions, some of which are probably good for the show, some of which probably good for email. But it came on the heels for me of a series of books that are dealing with this in a more round about way. And it's kind of funny, your first to separate sex from babies. We're running into this sort of, I'm always registered to use the word crisis, but I'll call it a crisis of childlessness and sort of depopul, you know, eventual depopulation because of the lower in birth rates. And you know, I'm reading, I finished reading what to expect when no one's expecting by Jonathan last, which is a great book.

It's a notebook, but still

relevant. And it very much is dealing with the repercussions of, you know, what happens when you separate sex from babies to society that you don't even, you don't even know is going to happen. You know, you're not even, you're not even foreseen it. And then you kind of have the separate sex and babies from marriage. And I just finished reading the book get married. I'm trying to remember the author's name. Red bullcocks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's great. You know, and it, it sort of lays out all of them, all of the myth that exists in society. And it's been promoted, especially to sort of the millennial and gen Z generations about the benefits of not getting married, kind of coming on the heels of the original, maybe baby boomer and Gen X sort of inheritors of the sexual revolution, kind of what they then taught their kids. Because I can, I mean, true for me, I'm sure it's true for you and true for Adam. When I was growing up still in the 70s and 80s, this stuff is, is there, but it's sort of making its way into a solidified ideology. By the time you get to the 90s, it's a solidified ideology, for sure. Which means that any kid born in the 90s or later, they grow up with this sort of quote unquote sexual revolution as not a revolution, but as just what the world is. A sort of worldview norm. And then you get, I love these people coming along and saying, well, you know what you've been told about all of the things about marriage that are negative and the downsides is let me give you some data. It's not, it's just not true. And then just finished reading, you know, Tim Carney's family and friendly, where he kind of, he does the same thing about having a family and all the horrible things you've been told about having a family. And he turns all that on and said, and I mean, if you just sort of take in all of the information in your wonderful book, I kind of leave it and you're like, Oh my gosh, is anybody going to see the light here? And at the end of the day, it was nice for me to have come off of some of the other books too, where people have seen the light, you know, and I can even say that in the last couple years, because I wrote a book in 2016 called Being Dad, which is an encouragement for people to become fathers and to be good fathers. And it was probably in a lot of ways, it was probably written a little early, because that that's picking up that whole idea is picking up way more steam now, than when I wrote that book. And it's a, this can all be a very discouraging conversation. And it is, like, I mean, it just seems to be like bedlam, you know, it's getting worse and worse until you, there are also some bright lights shining through that weren't even a few years ago. And kid, which can be kind of encouraging to hear people do all the data on everything you think is the world regarding marriage that you've been taught your entire life, probably even by your parents, by the schools, by the state, I loved the connection to the state and your sexual state, by the way, by absolutely. I mean, but all you're strong, here's the data, it's wrong. All the stuff you've heard about the downsides of marriage, you know, you're wrong, you're not going to have as much fun insects, you're not going to enjoy as much, you're going to have less money, here's the data. I mean, just straight up data to get wrong. Yeah, everything you heard is wrong. Yeah, everything you heard about how horrible starting a family is, and it go through every point, it's wrong.

How possible it is, how it costs too much, how it, yeah. It's

so there's part of this that, you know, it's just you look at the news and the social media is and you say, Oh my gosh, this is ever going to stop. Then you can get some glimpses that, well, maybe, maybe there are people like you doing good work on this and to Carney and John at the last, you know, doing good work on this and hopefully they're changing minds. And I think, I think you guys are, I think y'all are.

Can I ask my question now? Yeah, go for it. Was that a question? By the way, Scott, was that a question? I was, that was, that was, I'm kind of like you, I'm the boss, I just get to have running commentary. Yeah, I got to do a certain wherever I want, and have the people that work for me, go, what, what is he doing? I'm adding that. But thank you for your kind words about the book. Yeah, and in my experience, when I write a book, I talk about it, then it takes me like five years writing to figure out what it's about. And then I talk about it for another five years, and I figure out what it was really all about. And I see people over five years, you know, 100% the same way. I said to you, yeah,

yeah, it took me from Adam, I want to hear from Adam come up to 20 years to write being dad. And yeah, because I wanted to get my oldest to the point where they were, you know, pretty successful before you write a book called Dang Bad. You know, you don't want to be unaware by, by children that are horrible when you write it. The whole book,

it hinges on if my life goes up or down. So it's like a lot of pressures. Oh, it's you. No pressure. Yeah, no pressure.

Pressure is

good. This is a history guy. So this one's probably Scott or Caleb, but do you refer to the architects of this? Of these I got used to wondering, like, how far back do they go? Is this 1960s and 70s? Or is this like Reinkert school kind of era 1930s, 40s? Is it Rousseau or somewhere in the middle there? Or like who are the big movers and shakers, especially the ones that are not just thinking these ideas, these revolutionary ideas, but actually use that, you know, put to

purpose their ideology? Yes. Well, you

know, it's in sure historian, you'll appreciate this. Everything, you know, it goes back to Adam and Ansley, you know, joining it right down to it. I mean, you're the working out of original sin in this wonderful area of disordered sexuality, right? And we can now see that when sexuality is not properly ordered, it's chaos. I mean, it's really chaos. It weasels its way in every nook and cranny of life, you know, but to answer your question in a serious way, it does pre for sure predates the 60s, of course, because the 60s people didn't come out of nowhere, you know, but

most

of the people that I talk about are from I would say more from the 30s. So I talk about Bill Hilary. I don't know if you're familiar with him. A lot of people are not familiar with his German figure, in my opinion, a nut job, a complete whack job. He actually wrote the book called the sexual revolution. And he predicted oddly enough, he predicted that it would take off in America. Okay, in the 30s, he's saying this, that this, that it would be a big thing in America, that that's where it would really take root. And I've never, I still don't completely understand that. But anyway, he had the idea that repressed sexuality was terrible, that if you didn't let people do what they wanted sexually, they'd become fascists. You know, this type of non sequitur. Okay. I suppose you'd have to say Freud is in the mix, you know, in terms of rediality, your personality could have uncrew that. Although he understood that limits were constructive, you know, I mean, he had some sense that constraining people could be socially productive. So I talk about Reich,

I talk about Kinsey for sure. No, I was gonna say in your book, you really connect,

Kinsey connection between the sexual behavior in the human male sexual behavior in the human flesh. Right. And that was the 40s. Okay. His first book came out in the 40s. And, you know, of course, Margaret Sanger is in the mix as well. But the thing that I say in the book that I think people don't necessarily, you know, wouldn't necessarily put together is has to do with what Scott said, which is there are people in our world who think there are too many people. Okay. And so John D Rockefeller, the third is one of the first people who's really, oh my gosh, there are too many people. I think he got stuck in a traffic jam in India once or something, you know, usually, usually some sort of, uh, colonial racism

experiment as well, where they go to a country with lower standards of living in the West and see people everywhere and, and connect to that it's too many people. I forgive what book I was reading, but that

that idea went back to that was that was what happened with early and well,

resulted in population. Yeah, but there was even some some Christians who did it in in London, um, you know, hundreds of years earlier who associated that, you know, Christians had slower population rates. And that's why they were more civilized. And so some of these other portions of the world were less civilized because basically because they keep populated. Hmm. Well,

the, the long point that I draw out in, in my book, and this is, this is my economics. You know, I have his interests in history, but my mind works like an economist. The amount of money that the billionaires have pumped into the ideology is truly staggering. Okay. So John D Rockefeller, the third was one of the first to really say there's too many people in the world. What can we do about it? He started by spending his own money, uh, with private foundations that he created to, you know, encourage people to have fewer kids and so and we would got to control the population. We've got to do something about it. But over time, what he and his fellows, you know, fellow rich people did was to encourage governments to spend their tax dollars incentivizing lower birth rates and stuff like that. And honestly, one of the big turn in addition to that, the Rockefeller Foundation, which is the generation before John D Rockefeller, the third, they are the ones who financed Alfred Kinsey. I mean, if it were not for the Rockefeller Foundation, you can go to their website today and you will see them bragging about how we financed this great, burly, beautiful research that's so important to everyone. I'm telling you, if it weren't for the Rockefeller Foundation, Kinsey would be a two-bit bug doctor with a masturbation problem that no one would have ever heard of. I mean, they promoted him and they're still proud of it. And, and he, oh, don't get me started on Kinsey. But, but he made it sound like everybody's doing it. Okay. So the GIs came home from World War II and found out that everybody's having affairs because Kinsey said so because Kinsey sampled his, Kinsey took biased samples that were not representative and drew general conclusions about the whole population. This is a standard trick, by the way. This is how this is how Dad is manipulated. And at the Ruth Institute, we are looking for that all the time and it's still going on. You know, it's, it's still, that the whole debate over gay marriage was conducted in this manner, you know, to be honest, but, but anyway, I'm sorry, I'm getting a little hybrid out this, but the point is, the point is these billionaires have pumped literally billions of dollars into the society, convincing people number one that there are too many people and then doing things to systematically reshape the incentives. It was in 1974 that Rockefeller, John D. Rockefeller III, figured out that talking about population control was not getting anywhere. People were creeped out by that. They thought, and I've got chapter and verse in there. Latinos, black people go, what the heck? We don't want anything to do with this. He figured out 1974, he gave a speech at a conference that he sponsored and he basically said, what we need to do is empower women. We need to educate women because he figured out somehow that if you educated women, then the cost to them on having more kids would be too high because you invest in all this education stuff. And this is, this is where we are today, the richest women that have ever existed in the entire history of the human race can't afford to have kids. Well, that's all their opportunity cost. They've invested in all this education and whatnot, and they can't bear the thought of stand-home with their babies, even though in their hearts, they want to stand with the

babies. Yeah, the desired rate of how many children and women say they want to have prior to having kids is still the same as it essentially was in the 1960s. I think it's still like 1.6 or something like that, that it averages out to while the rate itself is dropping way below 1.6. And it has become a

weird... So like, my pal

Hannah's children.

Yeah. My buddy, my buddy Katherine Pakalik is a fellow economist. She's the mother of eight children. She wrote this book about women who have large families, educated women who have large families. And she, that point you just made, Scott, 100%. You look across the world, you look across countries and you ask women, you know, when they're 20, how many kids do you want? You asked them when they're 45, how many kids did you have? And desired fertility is always higher than what they actually achieved. There are millions of heartbroken women who have not had as many children as they wanted. Millions of us, millions, okay? Nobody ever talks about it.

And the data corruption is the same with Paul Erlich. He was literally disproved, I think, in several debates, less than a year out from writing his book, and yet it made it into the universities as required textbook for, you know, still to this day, even though it's shown to be completely bogus. I mean, from top to bottom, I was going to say that I tried to remember who were the initial funders of Margaret Sanger II and her sort of initial birth control movements. John D. Rockefeller Jr. is one of the big ones. And the other one I think is the daughter of like the original Proctor & Gamble family or something like that. Not quite. You're close. You're close.

Clarence, yeah, yeah, there was somebody from the Proctor & Gamble family. I want to say Clarence Gamble, but I might be wrong about that. But yes, but the other person was Catherine McCormick, the Chicago heiress from the McCormick Reaper Company. There's a book floating around called The Profiles for People Who Changed the World. It's this big love fest for the people who made the pill possible and stuff. But of course, Catherine McCormick is one

of them. In addition to Margaret Sanger. Forget the forced sterilizations of women in Puerto Rico.