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Ryan Hawk introduces Nicholas Thompson, episode themes, and sponsor Insight Global before the conversation begins.

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Go to www.LearningLeader.com for full show notes

This is brought to you by Insight Global. If you need to hire one person, hire a team of people, or transform your business through Talent or Technical Services, Insight Global's team of 30,000 people around the world has the hustle and grit to deliver.

My guest: Nicholas Thompson is the CEO of The Atlantic and former editor-in-chief of WIRED. He's the author of the best-selling book (and one of my favorites of the year), The Running Ground. Nick shares why great leaders must balance being decisive with staying open to being wrong, how to build teams that challenge your thinking without creating chaos, and why the most important skill for the next decade is knowing what questions only humans can answer.

Key Learnings

Consistency Over Intensity Creates Results - If you go out there every day, six or seven days a week, and a couple days you push yourself really hard, you get faster. There's no two ways about it. If you don't do that, you don't get faster. It's a very good reminder that you can get a lot done if you just go and allot time to pushing yourself.

Recommendation letter written by the Stanford faculty about Nick's dad to be a Rhodes Scholar: "Scotty Thompson is the kind of young man that comes along only once in approximately ten years. I cannot recall ever having known a student who possessed the same combination of intelligence, creativity, energy, drive, and dedication. He has attempted more, achieved more, than anyone we have studied– including some who now hold high office. He is generally conceded among those who have observed the student body since World War II to be the outstanding leader of the era. I think it likely that in the entire history of Stanford campus life, he has had no near rival since Herbert Hoover as an undergraduate."

Also about Nick's Dad: Tracy Bennett, one of his graduate students, said, "He was flamboyant, gently endearing, annoyingly arrogant, piercingly intelligent, entertaining, and more. I'd never met a man, nor had a professor, who was clearly so brilliant and at the same time so precariously insecure."

His grandfather, Frank Thompson, placed second in the Southern California extemporaneous speaking contest held at Whittier College. First place was Richard Nixon.

Parenting — "Nothing makes me more worried about failure than parenting." "Parenting is suffused with regrets, confusion, and mistakes. But when I run by, I know my children are rooting for me to succeed with infinite love and enthusiasm."

Running hard... Pushing yourself. Why do it? "Discipline builds discipline. Discipline is cumulative."

Sometimes You Have to Trick Yourself - I ran 10:48 because the track was bigger than I thought, and I didn't realize how fast I was going. If I had known I was running at a 5:23 pace, I would've shut down. My body would've started to hurt. Sometimes you can't let yourself know what you're actually doing, or you'll get scared.

Hiring at The Atlantic - The people he hires at The Atlantic share four must-have attributes: A spirit of generosity. A force of ideas. They're relentlessly hard workers. And they have an edge: an anxiety about getting great work done. That last one stuck with me. The best people aren't just talented... They're driven by a productive anxiety to do work that matters.

Becoming CEO of The Atlantic: The Search & Selection: The Atlantic conducted a yearlong search after President Bob Cohn left in fall 2019. When owners Laurene Powell Jobs and David Bradley announced Thompsont in December 2020, they said "Nick is singular; we've seen no one like him" and that he brought "a surround-sound coverage of relevant experience."

Move at an Uncomfortable Pace - You don't get anything you want by being comfortable. If you're working in a way that feels easy and setting deadlines where everything seems smooth, you're not growing, you're not learning, you're not getting there. That's a lesson from running, and it's a good lesson for work.

Set Audacious Goals - We're setting two extremely big goals at The Atlantic. Our projections don't suggest we're going to hit them. But the same was true last time when I said we're gonna get profitable and a million subscribers in three years. We got there. Sometimes having a really big goal motivates you and forces all the tough choices.

Continuous Forward Motion Matters Most - When I realized yesterday's marathon was going badly, I kept telling myself: continuous forward motion. Sometimes the goal becomes just finishing. It's better to make a full drop in pace and hold that than to slowly slide backwards every mile once you know you won't hit your goal.

Every Extra Word Is an Opportunity to Lose People - Every extra word, every extra thought, every extra detail that doesn't propel the story needs to be removed. This book is 75,000 words, but there's 60,000 words I cut. Is this sentence absolutely essential? No? It's gone. That's storytelling, and that's leadership communication.

The Cocktail Party Test for Storytelling - If you describe what you're writing at a cocktail party, do people come towards you or walk away? I can talk about my 2005 cancer diagnosis and 2007 marathon, and people lock in. I talk about my 2009 marathon, and no one cares. Test what has emotional resonance with your friends.

Write and Speak To Help People SEE a Movie - When somebody's reading, they're visualizing it in their mind's eye. Can you see it? Can you feel it? If you can't run a movie in your head about what I'm writing, it shouldn't be on the page. Help them visualize it—the little white house in Concord, walking around Walden Pond.

Hiring: Spirit of Generosity and Force of Ideas - Spirit of generosity means can they work with people? Will they be territorial or figure out what's best for the org? Force of ideas means are you smart and sharp? I also want edge—a little bit of productive paranoia. Not complacent, but kind to everybody.

Discipline Can Show Up in Different Ways - My editor-in-chief hasn't run a mile in 25 years. Is he disciplined? Hell yeah. Works all the time, focused on every sentence. You can have mental discipline without physical discipline. I try to get the most out of different kinds of people with different strengths.

Keep Going - This is the hardest time to graduate because of AI and uncertainty. Find things you're passionate about and really focus on them. My twenties weren't great professionally. I found journalism, but I wasn't good at it yet. Keep pushing, and eventually things turn out for the best.

Reflection Questions

What would happen if you moved at an uncomfortable pace in your most important work?
Where are you setting deadlines that feel too easy and smooth?
Are you ruthlessly cutting everything that doesn't propel your story forward? What sentence, meeting, or project exists simply because it always has, not because it's essential?

Former Episodes Referenced

#603 - Michael Easter - The Comfort Crisis

#611 - Codie Sanchez - Main Street Millionaire

#654 - Jake Tapper - Be So Good They Can't Ignore You

Time Stamps:

02:05 Nick's NYC Marathon Experience

03:35 Nick's Father's Legacy

11:43 Running and Leadership

17:08 Overcoming Cancer and Running Again

19:24 The Importance of Setting "Stretch" Goals

21:30 Marathon Challenges and Lessons

27:09 The Warrior Athlete and Early Lessons