Today we are in conversation with Jordan Hall. Jordan lays bare the multiplicity of issues that emerge from relying on complicated systems to manage complex situations. The conversation elucidates the fatal flaws with the complicated systems currently in place and touches on what solutions could look like, whilst contending with the difficulty in achieving these. Jordan is the executive chair and co-founder of Neurohacker Collective, a company that makes ground-breaking products for health and well-being through complex systems science. He is in his seventeenth year building disruptive technologies. His previous positions include crafting strategy and product for MP3.com, then at InterVU (acquired by Akamai) and then finally in2000 launching and leading the online digital video revolution as founder and CEO of DivX.