The Effect of Debt on Property Prices

So if you have a cap rate of 5%, but you have an interest rate of 6%, probably not a good deal to go out and leverage that property. Because that's the spread, right? That's the leverage you're getting from the debt. So now what we've done is simply by using debt, we've gone from 8% to 16%. But let me ask the question. People frequently, there's some very popular influencers out there that say don't use debt. Right.