Speaker 2
It was the pieces on Jordan Peterson phenomenon that started the growth of the channel and this just gradually sort of picked up. Steam and got more and more listeners and more and more viewers. So I've really wrestled with a sense of what is my personal loyalty towards him versus my... Who do you owe
Speaker 1
him? Something.
Speaker 2
Yes, for sure. David
Speaker 1
worried he had developed a parasocial relationship with his guru. Even though they'd only met twice, David felt that he knew Peterson. Do you see him as a sort of father figure? Is that part of your relationship with him?
Speaker 2
I've asked myself this question. I think one of the things that Jordan Peterson says would not necessarily transparent to ourselves. He was seen as a father figure by so many people. It's definitely possible.
Speaker 1
This idea of parasocial relationships, feeling as though we're personal friends with people whose content we consume online, is key to understanding the new world of gurus. It explains why someone like Jordan Peterson has such ardent fans ready to avenge any slight against their idol. David knew that if he criticised Peterson, he would lose some of his own audience, people who would see it as a betrayal. But he did it
Speaker 1
So what was the response when you published your sub-stack piece saying, I've got some concerns?
Speaker 2
Definitely very mixed. Privately, a lot of support and a lot of people saying, thank you for articulating something that we've been feeling. A lot of people criticising saying, how could you do this to someone you had this relationship with? I mean, I'm certainly aware of probably having closed certain doors. But that's one of the problems with the alternative media is these invisible networks of patronage. These kind of aligned friendships behind the scenes.
Speaker 1
Alice Dragus sees the same problem of social connections throughout the whole of the gurus' fear. You wrote in the Chronicle after the intellectual dark web piece came out. It isn't a solution, it might just be a sign of the end times. Is that still how you see it?
Speaker 3
I do, because I think what you have is this cult of personality problem, conflating itself with scholarship. I really do feel like that's end times. Because basically then we're just going back to little churches, right? We're just going back to what the original system was, except instead of having one giant church, we have lots of little churches where you pick your pastor and follow them and believe what they say. You know, some of the folks in that group have done some good work, but a lot of them just have gone off the
Speaker 1
rails. Alice doesn't regret refusing the chance to be in the intellectual
Speaker 3
dark web. What a tragic ship, right? It's just such a tragic ship. I feel like I didn't step on the Titanic there. I got delayed at the dock and decided to have one more cup of tea and didn't get on the boat. So, yeah.
Speaker 1
Today, the IDW has split in two. After Elon Musk took over Twitter, Jordan Peterson and James Lindsay were allowed back on the platform. Within hours, both had tweeted dozens of times. By contrast, on the 24th of November, Sam Harris suspended his account. Some of the IDW have stayed heterodox thinkers, genuine originals challenging all kinds of received wisdom. Others have become straightforward conservative pundits. A handful are now conspiracy theorists. Amid all this, David is wondering what to do next after winding down his YouTube channel. David further strikes me as someone who is still searching for answers, searching for a father figure, searching for a guru, one who won't let him down this time. How does a guru stay sane?
