Tommy, you weirdly decided to rewatch the first Biden-Trump debate from 2020. You guys did, too. Without being asked. Well, Tommy and I flew here on Sunday. Our flight was delayed five hours, so we spent the day at LAX. We did. We finally got on the plane, and it was pretty late. And Tommy spent the flight watching the first debate. It was a good time. And then now we all felt bad. So we all started watching it today. And let me tell you, it's not a fun watch. Tommy, what were your takeaways from that undoubtedly enjoyable experience? Yes, we had a great time on the plane. Biggest

takeaway, unfortunately, it's an optics one, which is Joe Biden looked a lot younger. And I know no one wants to hear that, he looked younger and he sounded younger. And so I totally agree with what Dan is saying that there is a threshold question about his age that he has to answer that we saw in the New York Times poll where 68% of voters were concerned about his age and fitness to do the job. So I think what he says might be at some points of the debate less important than how he says it or the vigor with which he sort of prosecutes the case. The flip side of that was Trump was so much angrier and redder faced and angrier. Just he was so enraged in that moment. And I'd almost forgotten how just caustic and nasty he was. And of course, we did later learn that he had COVID and he wound up in the hospital. So I guess on some level, it's like kind of an impressive performance, you know, to get out there and just rage for 90 minutes with

COVID. He played through it. He's like Michael Jordan in that game. The one fact about sports I know. That

was good. The flu game. Yeah. The flu game. Jordan flu game. It

was like the flu game. Good

for you and then poor chris wallace was just a drunk guy at a bar holding on to the mechanical bull like you agreed to the rules but um so we'll we'll see how this goes i mean the takeaway was trump is going to attack from the very first second until the last second so you have to be prepared for that but also parry and respond and get him on defense and get that version of Trump, this angry, raging, red-faced man back on that stage. I don't think he has learned discipline in the last couple of years, but we've seen a more disciplined campaign, so it is a concern. I think Biden has to look energetic, as we discussed. He has to be sharp and be on top of things. then the one thing it really did make me rethink was this this um question about the muted mics when they're not speaking and the impact because i do think muting their mics when the other is speaking is good for the republic because i think most people watch a debate like that and they shout over each other and the response is not to blame one or the other. It's just to be like, politics is awful. Like, ESPN is a channel away. Like, what are we doing here? But I do worry that a muted mic could save Trump from himself and the ugliest side of him coming out. So it made me a little anxious about that.

Yeah. Because I remember watching that first debate and when they were yelling at each other, it was like, oh, this is just it's just bad. To Stacey's earlier point about like the most important thing you do is like talk directly to the people. I do think to the extent that Biden shows anger or passion, you always want it to be like anger on behalf of the American people, passion on behalf of the American people and not anger at Trump. Like when Trump tries to needle him in a personal way, who can, let that stuff go. When Trump tries to say something that you can then come back and be like, look, you, you know, in 2020, you tried to throw people's votes away, right? You, you, you took the, the right to uh women's health care away from them you tried to take 20 million people's health care away from them right like get angry about things that affect people don't get angry about whatever donald trump says about you know you graduated last in your class which he seemed really obsessed with in that first debate love it one topic uh dc is yapping about ahead of the debate has to do with fact-checking. CNN's political director said the debate is, quote, not the ideal arena for live fact-checking and that Dana and Jake will be, quote, facilitating the debate between these candidates. They will not be participants in that debate. There's some reports that this has annoyed the Biden camp. Trump then posted that nobody's as loose with the truth as Crooked Joe and accused him of lying about his golf handicap. What do you make of this? How much, if any, fact-checking should the moderators do?

Yeah, no, look, we're a couple fact-checks away from having this whole thing locked up. Get a couple more Pinocchios out there. You can all get a good night's sleep. So, yeah, I saw these stories. And look, I love working the refs. Let's work the refs. Great. But we were just talking about what Joe Biden has to do. Joe Biden has to defy right-wing caricatures of his performance, assuage people's concerns about his age, while at the same time reminding people of everything they dislike about Trump as a narcissist and how extreme he is. The moderators can't do that. The moderators can't help him do either of those things. Only Joe Biden can do that. And that would be true if the moderators weren't Jake Tapper and Dana Bash, who were, I think, two reporters who are going to follow up. They're not going to just roll over, but we've seen them interview both of these people in the past. And not only that, how does Joe Biden do both assuage people's concerns about his age and remind people of the threat Trump poses? By beating Trump in a debate. That's how he does it. He will prove that he is up for the job by proving that Trump is not up for the job. And so I am less concerned about whether or not Dana Bash says, actually inflation is technically down or Jake Tapper jumps in and says, actually murder rates were higher in 2020 than I am about any circumstance in which Joe Biden is just standing there. And all of a sudden Jake is arguing with Trump and then Dana Bash comes down with a fucking folding chair on top of Trump's head and Joe Biden is just an observer. Like, I'm not interested in that.

I'm interested in that. Yeah, I'd love to. That sounds incredible. What are you talking about? That's amazing. No, no. Any problem solved?

I'm talking myself into it. I'm talking myself into it. More broadly, there's a lot of reasons to be concerned about misinformation, about Joe Biden's age, about the ways in which the media kind of has normalized Trump. But man, this debate is about Joe Biden answering the concerns that Americans have. And really, I think any conversation about the moderators is a side joke. Stacey,

if the moderators don't fact check Trump, how much fact checking do you think Joe Biden should do? He

should only

fact check as a way to talk about the future. It's this is what should actually be understood. This is how we talk about it. Rule number one in misinformation is you don't repeat the lie. And so using the lie as a way to show his strength, to show his future vision, to avoid Dana getting up with the chair, those are all, like, he could be doing a lot of services both for America and for CNN by using it as a point of entry to a larger conversation so that people see what possibilities look like. And to the point about being reminded of just how angry Trump is, not taking the bait ticks him off more than almost anything else. And so being unwilling to take the bait and instead being the grownup on the stage, which is what he is, that's the best way to fact check without having to call the question. I think that's

so important because there is, and I think Biden fell into this in that last debate with the wrong guy, wrong time, wrong place, right? That is a version of strength, right? But Biden needs to be as strong and steady. People think Trump is strong. They may view that strength in a malicious way, as many of us do and should, but he comes off as strong, right? It's Sarah Longwell, our friend who's on this podcast a lot, says he gives off raving lunatic energy, right? And so that becomes equated with strong. So Biden doesn't show strength by repeatedly punching Trump in the face, literally or figuratively, but by being strong and energetic in his responses, but also seeming steady. Because that's the difference between the two, is that that's how Biden won was. Trump, like you watch that debate, and it's a reminder of just how chaotic and erratic and alarming Trump is. And that was particularly alarming at a time of national crisis, like we were going through in the pandemic at the time. And so Biden had, and people looked at Biden, and they said, that is a steady hand on the wheel in a dangerous time. And Biden has to show that, because that's been lost over the last four years. I mean, I think it's machismo versus maturity.

Yes, that's right. We need to see maturity. And that lets him lean into age because you get maturity from someone who's been here long enough to know what's worth fighting about and what's not. We've got a whole lot of maturity on our side.

Yeah, we got maturity. Yeah, maturity up the yang we got so much maturity i i think the the where

it gets a little weird for jake and dana is not like actually mr former president uh 27 nato countries paid two percent of gdp for defense like you know it's like not it's like would you cheer yeah no it's like it's like no actually mr president you you didn't win the 2020 election and your own attorney general said there wasn't sufficient voter fraud to impact the outcome in any way like those are the kind of threshold like the sky is blue the sky is red kind of reality based questions where i wonder if they start to feel like they need to start yeah

i mean we're talking about this like it's a regular presidential debate, but one of the candidates is a convicted felon who tried to overturn the last election and then incited a violent insurrection in the Capitol.