For this special classic episode, Aaron delves deeply into a provocative claim made on NPR's This American Life. In a conversation with host Ira Glass, Princeton historian Elaine Pagels argues that Jesus's death on the cross was an "utter failure." This piques Aaron's curiosity. He decides to explore the topic further, questioning leading scholars and theologians about whether Jesus's crucifixion really was a failure as Pagels suggests. Aaron brings on apologist Thomas Fretwell and his friend Wavey Cowper to share revelatory insights and historical context. They examine what Jesus and his earliest followers truly understood about his death on the cross. Was Jesus's crucifixion the Roman Empire successfully squashing a would-be revolution? Or was it the enactment of God's eternal plan of salvation for humanity? Join Aaron and his friends as they pick at Pagels' thesis - and explores the far-reaching implications of Jesus willingly enduring the ultimate human failure, in order to achieve the ultimate divine victory. Through thoughtful discussion, historical evidence and theological reflection, they aim to provide you with a fresh perspective on the death and resurrection of Christ.