Isn't It Worth While to Get Clear About It?

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There's a sort of strategic ambiguity about what socialism really means. I tat contexts whern one si addid sort of, we just want te generals welt, or state. And on the other side, iso, we want to end capitalism. And so it doesn't seem entirely academic for movement to get clear about it. You can say it's harming the movement. It's making it difficult for us to gather converts. But in this case, in politics, it's better to be clear than unclear.

Elizabeth Bruenig is a staff writer at The Atlantic and a Catholic socialist who writes on topics as varied as capital punishment and mothering two children while in her twenties. Her work is uniquely marked by her ruby-red Texas upbringing, the elite professional world she now inhabits, and her deep sense of morality, which draws from both Christian theology and left-wing politics.

In a wide-ranging conversation, Elizabeth Bruenig and Yascha Mounk debate the importance of dialogue across moral perspectives, whether wokeness bears any resemblance to theology, and how religious conviction can give rise to an authentically liberal defense of free speech.

This transcript has been condensed and lightly edited for clarity.

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