Cultural Identity and Homosexuality in Islamic Societies

In this provocative video, the hosts discuss the contentious question: do gays contribute to the collapse of civilizations? They explore historical examples including the Roman, Islamic, and Greek empires, as well as insights from the modern era. Drawing from various scholarly works, including JD Unwin's 1934 study, they examine the correlation between sexual norms and societal success or decline. The episode delves into whether loosening sexual boundaries, specifically around same-sex relationships, can be linked to civilizational collapse. The hosts also critique modern and historical cultural norms, providing a balanced view on a highly debatable topic.

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Hello, Simone. Today is going to be a very spicy episode because I am going to be asking the question, do gays lead to the collapse of civilization?

The Fall of Rome.

Joe Rogan had this to say on his podcast fascinating that the end of empires, they get really concerned with gender and hermaphrodites the Roman fem boy. Fully grown and willing to take on the role of a common Roman woman. Even the emperor himself donned girly outfits, mascara, and held many chamber parties . The Roman Senate began having debates to determine if quote, being with a fem boy was a totally gay thing. After all,

Malcolm Collins: oh. So this is one of those things that I thought was really good for like. Us to do, because I think our audience knows that we would be honest with them about what we found on either side of this issue. Okay. Like there is no answer I could come to on this question that's not gonna piss off some large part of our audience.

So, you know, you're getting an honest answer from me and [00:01:00] I I, and you know, a lot of people. What made me think about this is I heard. If you look at Christians today, because I was reading , a piece about how different the modern Christian and conservative movement is from the historic Christian and conservative movement.

And they pointed out that if you look at Christians today who argue to ban things like same-sex marriage, they base their arguments on the Bible. But if you look at historic conservatives you know, you go back to a Ronald Reagan or something like that they based their arguments on loosening sexual morays, specifically around gay sex will lead to the collapse of civilization.

And they don't really mention the Bible that much in, in why they, they argue for this stuff anyway, and it makes a lot more sense. Like, I, I argue that like, okay, if it was true that gays or loosening sexual boundaries around gayness could lead to the collapse of a, of a civilization, like if that was a trend that kept happening over and over again in history, like I can [00:02:00] understand like the morality of putting a law around gay marriage.

I never understood why you'd wanna police somebody else's marriage, but I was like. Oh, the collapse of civilization. That makes sense. But the, the Christian argument makes no sense to me because like obviously these people don't believe what you believe about God or Christ, so you're not really helping them, like Right.

How does it help a, a, a non, what you would think of as is your type of Christian person for you to enforce them to follow a few Christian rules? Yeah. Like that, that's not the core point of c That's like broadly against. Everything Christian. When, when, when it's supposed to be the, you know, if you're a traditional Christian on a alperin, you would say, well, Christ died for your sins.

And it is through him that you, you, you get to God. Like, and, and, and even what Christ said, you know, he's not a Sharia law guy. You know, he's, he's. He's a, you know, render unde Caesar, right? Like Christianity is actually distinct among the major religions and that he does not talk a lot about how you should govern a country and explicitly has built [00:03:00] within it a separation of church and state which I argue is one of the reasons it has been such a successful religion.

It's much better to build religion that way and that when you get a merger of church and state, as you have seen within some Christian churches, the churches get watered down super, super quickly. Which is funny, a lot of people think the reason you shouldn't have a merger of church and state is because the church will impose all sorts of theocratic rules on people when in reality, no, it's the state and the bureaucrats are very good at watering down churches.

And that you really only get strong churches in regions where you don't have a melding of church and state. Right? And it, but it happens every time. So the melting happened recently. You might still get some theocratic stuff, but if it's a hundred years ago, 200 years ago, now it's typically wishy-washy.

But a lot of this comes down from Janie Unwins work which is where the theory was initially posed. So I'll go into his arguments for this concept. JD Unwins work frequently cited in support of the claim for I say, theoretical framework. His 1934 book, sex and Culture studied three six societies and concluded that strict sexual restraint, [00:04:00] prenuptial, chastity.

Monogamy correlates with cultural flourishing while sexual liberalism leaves UK within three generations. However, unwins focus is on general sexual norms, not specifically same sex relationships. And his methodology has been critiqued for lacking direct causation. The, for the claim, I, I told it to steelman both positions.

Unins findings are interpreted by some like Rory f Mc. Paul's blog to suggest that Western sexual revolution late 1960s could lead to a collapse by the 2070s with modern factors like antibiotics and pornography, accelerating the decay comments in various articles. Also link homosexuality to moral decay, citing studies on intimate partner violence.

IPV from the university of to. Torino these are disputed. Well, I mean, I know that IPV is super high in lesbian communities in gay communities.

Simone Collins: I'm gonna ask Claude because that's, yeah, [00:05:00] that's somewhat, huh.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, it says even Claude says, higher or equal to heterosexual men. Was it it happening in 25 to 33% of, of gay relationships? So. Okay. That's, that's like not bad argument there, right? Like, Hmm. If you're like, well it's associated with societal ills found within these relationships. And I think few people would argue that it intimate partner violence isn't a societal ill that, you know, there, it might make sense to have regulations against it against the claim.

Critics, including historians on Reddits, are ask historians, Ooh, such, such veracity. There argue Unwins work is too broad with no direct evidence. Linking same-sex relationships to collapse The Guardian article 2015 satellites as a claims, calling it a slippery slope argument, EG leading to beigy, animal marriages, fevered, ramblings.

But a lot of the slippery slip stuff has turned out right. Like I remember I was in GSAs as a kid and yeah. It would've been considered homophobic. [00:06:00] Like I remember because somebody mentioned this and they got like chewed out and like yelled at and, and shut out of a room to suggest that trans people would ever attempt to compete in the sport of their gender.

Specifically that that trans women. Would try to compete in women's sports. They were like, that's just homophobic, slippery slope. You know, insane ramblings. And now they're doing that, like the normalization of maps these are minor attracted persons. Is, is a movement that has been growing, I'd say for that, like the past 10 years or so.

In terms of, of, of normalization. The yeah, so I don't know if I agree with that. Right. Like, so I then said, okay, I can do research myself, Mr. Unwin, because I also hate the progressive argument against this. Yeah. It's like, well, just that you keep getting cases of gays being accepted and then civilization is collapsing.

Doesn't mean it's causal. Right. I'm like, if it happens like every time counter a [00:07:00] hypothesis here. Okay. It could be the sign of cultural flourishing. So, huh. What we need to do is, is, is look at broadly agreed civilizational collapses. Okay. Look at when homosexuality was, was accepted, and see if it was accepted more in the period before the collapse or in the period earlier, like early in that civilization's history, before it brought, oh, I

Simone Collins: don't like where this is going because I'm pretty sure it was mostly broadly.

Well,

Malcolm Collins: actually, I'm not sure. You, you might be surprised. You might be surprised. Yeah. Yeah. Not that I'm

Simone Collins: thinking

Malcolm Collins: about it actually. No. Oh, but the, the, the first one I ran was didn't, didn't turn out. Well for, for the gays. So this was on the Islamic Empire because I often feel that people under did, was there

Simone Collins: ever support for gays?

Oh, a lot.

Malcolm Collins: A lot. Yeah. Okay, so, okay. In the medieval Islamic world, same-sex relations were documented across several distinct periods with certain eras showing more visible evidence than others. The early AED period, eights to ninth century ce, it's particularly notable for its [00:08:00] relatively open discussions of same-sex desire in literature.

This was the era of the poet Abba Nua, who wrote explicit. Homoerotic poetry while serving in the court of Haran Al Rashid and Baghdad. Literary anthologies from this period collected numerous poems and anecdotes that referenced same sex desires in relationships, the high medieval period, 10 to 13th centuries across various regions of the Islamic world, including in ness Muslim, Spain Baghdad, Cairo, and other urban centers.

Produced significant literary and scholarly works that acknowledge same sex practices. This includes works by scholars like Iham Corvo, who wrote The Ring of the Dove and discussed various forms of love, including same sex attraction. The Ottoman period particularly 16th and 18th centuries, has documented evidence of institutionalized same-sex practices, especially in certain contexts like the correct dancers, young male dancers who performed in feminine attire.

And relationships with certain Sufi orders. So this [00:09:00] is like even in like the priesthood apparently was normal, like in Sufi orders. And, and the, the, you had like dancers who would dance as like males, but it was during specific periods. So then I ask, okay, when were the major collapses of Muslim civilization?

And so I'll just remind you here. Okay, so the first period when gays were normalized within Muslim culture was the early AM Bassett period, eight to ninth century CEEs. Okay. First collapse. Ninth to Century CE fragmentation of the ABBA Caliphate. The centralized authority of the Abid caliphate based in Baghdad, gradually weakened its various regions breaking away under local diocese.

Okay. That supports it. Okay? Then the next period was the Hy Medieval during the tenths and 13th centuries. Mongol Invasion. 13th century, perhaps the most devastating shock to the central Islamic lands, the Mongol quest of Baghdad in 1258 ended the ABBA Caliphate and caused innumerous destruction of infrastructure, including libraries and irrigation systems.

Many historians consider this a significant turning point, and then the post Mongol periods of 13th, [00:10:00] 15th century, also directly after this period of acceptance, 10 to 13th century. While not a dark age, this saw political fragmentation and some decline in certain scientific fields in the central Islamic lands, though there was still significant cultural and intellectual achievements.

Okay, well, there was the other period, the Ottoman Empire period, particularly the 16th and 18th century. Okay, the late ottoman periods, the 18th and 19th century was the next collapse. The Ottoman period experienced relative decline compared to rapidly advancing European powers. Though it was more about comparative advancement rather than absolute regression.

So batting pretty much zero here with Muslims, it would look like if we're looking at Muslim empires, there was a direct colonization to normalization of seing, of sexual restrictions around gays and, and empire imperial collapse. So let's go.

Simone Collins: I, I would try to justify this saying, okay, there are some cultural traditions that just don't support same sex attraction, but others do.

And clearly [00:11:00] Islam and same sex attraction, like these are just two cultural technologies. Or like, this is a cultural technology with a lifestyle that is not compatible.

Malcolm Collins: Mm-hmm. So let's go to the next one. This one is, is more interesting. Rome. So what do, what do you, you have some knowledge. My guess

Simone Collins: with Rome is that gay relationships, especially like the man, boy, I lover gay relationships that were so normalized.

I. We not something that was late stage Roman Empire. I think that was earlier stage and the late stage stuff. I think maybe that was less common even, or maybe even considered not. Okay. The

Malcolm Collins: intuition was, is correct. Okay. All right. The early Roman Republic period 5 0 9 to 20 CBCE, same sex relations were common and accepted within certain per.

Parameters governed by social status and roles rather than gender. The key distinction in Roman sexual morality was between being in active or a passive partner rather than the gender [00:12:00] of one's partner. For Roman men, maintaining the active penetrative role was socially acceptable regardless of their partner's gender.

The passive role was considered appropriate for only of those of lower status. Typically slaves, prostitute, and young men who had not yet reached full citizen status. Yeah. The system was firmly established by the Mid Republic during the late Republic and early empire first century, BCE to first century ce.

We see abundant literary and artistic evidence of same-sex relations, particularly in the work of poets like C Catalyst tus and Marshall Emperor Hadrian's relationship with Antonius. 11 seven. Two one hundred and thirty eight CE is perhaps the most famous historical example. It's worth noting that while same-sex practices were accepted, others were stigmatized.

Adult male citizens who preferred the passive role could face social ridicule and even legal penalties during certain periods as they violated expected gender norms. The attitudes began to shift with the rise of Christianity in the later empire, fourth [00:13:00] century CE onwards, which generally condemned same-sex relationships.

By the time of Emperor Justinian sixth century CE laws explicitly prohibiting same-sex relations were established.

Simone Collins: Hmm, there you go. So we have the opposite case here,

Malcolm Collins: the exact opposite case in, in Rome, a normalization of some types. Now, they still had rules around the types of gay sex you could have, but normalization of some types of gay sex were normal.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: In the Roman Empire. Yeah. And actually sex became more restrictive with the Roman Empire. Its conversion to Christianity, particularly around gayness. Mm-hmm. But I'd make a note here. Something you might not be thinking is what is reflected in this is the idea that. The periods that proceed or are during the rise of a culture and cultural flourishing uhhuh come with strict sexual norms and restrictions.

Mm, it's this male, male sex needed. It was still heavily [00:14:00] regulated. Yes, male, male sex need be among the restrictions, but you need cultural restrictions. And so what we might be seeing in something like, you know, Islam or something like that, is these periods represent a degradation of restrictions and rule following was in the religious system.

And the gayness specifically has nothing to do with it. Hmm. Let's go the next one. I'm thinking, well, Greeks, they were pretty gay. Yeah. Well actually this was interesting because leather Apron Club argues that gayness was not widely practiced in ancient Greece. And he, his arguments are pretty, he's like a smart guy.

Like, I think he's got like an agenda, but like he's a smart guy. Like his arguments are fairly compelling. Yeah. We go over his argument about Jews in one of our episodes. Are Jews actually not smarter? And I argue that he's, he's actually probably right, but he's wrong in his second part where he goes, and this is proof that they are are cheating and that they have gotten all these power through Ill again.

I'm like, well, actually it's, [00:15:00] here's all the evidence that it's cultural and that's why they're, they do better. On, on you know, IQ tests and everything like that is that they have cultural practices and, and dominance hierarchies tied to academic accomplishments that lead to them overperforming in these areas.

But his, his episode on, you know, gays in ancient assets, I'm like, it was weird 'cause it's almost like an anti classic Republican episode. Because, you know, if, if gays weren't in ancient assets, then they didn't contribute to the collapse of the Greek city states. Right? Right. So. What, like, okay.

So you, you don't get the, the JD Unwin argument there, but, okay. So I decided to dig into this. All right. Yeah. Classical assets fist to fourth century BCE is perhaps known for institutionalized pry relationships between adult men. Arrestees and adolescent boys or Nomi. These relationships were often educational and mentoring in nature alongside their sexual component and were relatively formalized within aristocratic circles.

Sparta had institutionalized same sex relationships as well, although for different purposes. Some scholars [00:16:00] suggested that intimate bonds between warriors were encouraged the way to string some military cohesion. Seeds had the famous sacred band and elite military unit composed of 150 pairs of male lovers based on the belief that men would fight more valiantly.

To protect or impress their partners archaic period eight to sixth centuries. BCE evidence suggests that same-sex relationships were already well-established cultural practices seen in the poetry of SFO from Lesbos, whose name gives us the term lesbian and others. Actually, we don't know if those poems were even written.

You know, the, in a Lesbian way, there's actually a pretty strong argument. They're not. No. But that is the mainstream position. The one I just gave you. But what's important as I ask the AI to go through every period of Greek history and then tell me, were gays accepted during that period, or were they not accepted during that period?

So even if it's making a mistake here, like overstating how accepted it was, then understating how unaccepted it was in later periods. Then they go the symposium, drinking party culture among elite men. [00:17:00] Interactions were common as depicted in works like Plato Symposium as with Rome.

Greek attitudes were structured around. Status and roles rather than gender. Adult citizens were expected to take the active role while younger males are inferiors took the passive role. These relationships typically followed age-based patterns. The younger partner was expected to grow up and become the active partner in relationships with others.

Okay. The Hellenistic period, so this is a later period. 3 23 to 31 BCE after Alexander the Great. So this is, you know, when, when Paris expanded and took over like most of the known world and was in its period of, of cultural height. Not cultural hype, but like, like the, this was like the, the, I guess the result of the success of Greek culture.

Now of course, Alexander the Great came from a different cultural background. He was seen as sort of barbarous by the Greek people, and you could argue that his ability to conquer them could be seen as a failing of Greek culture, which could to the argument that the earlier acceptance led to this collapse.

I don't really buy that. I see his culture as contiguous with Greek culture. [00:18:00] And so I would argue that if his culture had a success, if the the Hellenistic period had a success that was partially as a result of the whatever was being done before that, in the Hellenistic period several factors contributed to changing attitudes.

Specifically they became significantly more anti-gay. The mixing of Greek and non-Greek cultures led to more diverse perspectives on sexuality. The rise of philosophical schools like stoicism emphasized sexual restraint more generally the decline of the p. P, the city state weakened some of the institutional context for same-sex relationships flourish.

Hmm. And shifting political structures moved away from the citizen focused culture that had supported certain forms of same-sex relationships.

Simone Collins: Right. This trend is clear. There's just a consistent loss of discipline that leads to civilizational decline. It doesn't matter who is having sex with whom.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I, I then asked another AI and it gave me the same results about ancient Greek as in Rome, but then it also went into Japan, which wasn't in the first one.

Oh, wow. So let's this, okay. Japan, the ido, period. 1603 to 1868. , no moral stigma. Historical homosexuality accepted, [00:19:00] especially among Samurai Outlawed in 1873 to 1880 to emulate the West. Now legal with protections post-war, war II recovery. Quick economic, cultural powerhouse. No correlation with disintegration.

Acceptance linked to prosperity, not decline. Challenging the claim. So, in only one of the instances in the Islamic Empire could I find now, you know, Janie Unwin said he went through 83 empires. I'm gonna bet in his 83 empires, he listed Greeks and Romans as having debauchery and then having civilizational collapse.

Except now we're learning that that's hundreds of years apart. Right?

So Rome is such an obvious counter example. I actually wanted to check this. Did he mark Rome as you know, a rare caner example to his theory, or did he mark it as one of the cases that supported his theory? Because if he marked it as one of the cases that supported his theory, I think it's pretty clear that he was acting in bad faith in the other examples he was using.

Um, and he marked it one as a instance that supported [00:20:00] his theory, but he also seemed to be aware that the sexual, . Morality of the later empire was much stricter than the sexual morality of the early empire. , and so here's how he argued against that because apparently he went into it in detail. I. He focused on the, uh, specific aspects of Roman sexuality that did follow his pattern.

For example, he emphasized the supposed sexual discipline of the early republic in Rome, in contrasted it with the perceived excesses of the later republic and early empire. Now here. I know the, the sexual discipline of the early Republic Rome was written about in the later empire. It was people looking back to the old days and being like, oh, things used to be so good in the old days.

It wasn't written about in the early empire that way. , then he tended to interpret later Rome empires increased sexual restrictiveness, which came with Christianization not as a genuine return to sexual restraint, but as a reaction to previous excesses. Essentially arguing that the damage had already been done, but that doesn't work with his.

Three generation theories 'cause that was a period of hundreds of years. , [00:21:00] he sometimes conflated different periods of Roman history in ways that made the timeline fit his theory better. Not always clearly distinguishing between Republic and Empire or between, uh, early and late empire. In his analysis, he emphasized other factors beyond just homosexuality, looking at marriage practices, diverse rates, and other aspects of sexual behavior.

So it appears that. And, and I hate to say this because you know, it would be based in interesting if his theory was right, but JD Unwin appears to have been arguing in bad faith, um, and, and not really looking at the data. I.

Malcolm Collins: So. I, I get the mechanism of action, right? Like, it, it, it actually makes sense if you think through it, you're like, okay, well if you loosen some cultural norms, right? There's likely other cultural norms that are being loosened and you see sort of a degradation across.

Also, historically speaking, same-sex relationships were really dangerous. There was a, like, like from a disease risk, there's a reason like the AIDS phenomenon, such a danger to people like there. In a historic [00:22:00] context, a degree of selfishness to risk exposing your society, the diseases that could come from this.

So you could argue it's a sign of moral degradation within a society.

Simone Collins: Maybe,

Malcolm Collins: This is also why I would argue that that same-sex relationships between women are, are banned so rarely, historically speaking. Yeah. They're, they're not even banned in the Bible. Which is interesting. So like, yeah. What are your thoughts more broadly? Like, I understand the mechanism of action, but it doesn't appear to be being picked up by history. Yeah. And I wonder why. Well, because that it, it's probably not a real phenomenon. Like my, my guess is, is that what you're actually seeing is that if gayness, if you build a culture where gayness works and you're strict on other rules, like other forms of stoicism being gayness is not deleterious to a culture.

Simone Collins: Yeah, I think, so here's, here's my take in general is that. Because people have sometimes, you know, just based on your framework for sexuality people have very strong arousal or [00:23:00] disgusted responses to sexually related stimuli. And the average man. Is going to have a strong disgust reaction to male, male sex.

Mm-hmm. And as a result, a lot of men are going to get really hung up on man to man sex. And I think that makes him hyperfocused on it as like a problem that arises in history. I also really love your framework of cultures, like from hard to soft to super soft cultures. And I think that. Basically because people have such strong instinctual disgust and, and arousal reactions to various forms of sex.

And because most people haven't really thought about religions in terms of hard to soft, but rather Christianity and Islam and Buddhism, that they're not really seeing this very clear pattern of, no, this is about how much discipline you have. This is about how much fitness you're imparting to your adherence.

And [00:24:00] that's what they're missing.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. And that, that is not, in, in congruent with even, I'd argue, modern gay culture. Like there's been a, a branch of modern gay culture that you could call like wholesome gays or the gay dad phenomenon where they obviously, if you like, know them, are actually pretty strict around a lot of the moral laws that they follow.

Oh,

Simone Collins: and they're, they're also like high performing professionals who work really hard. This is why so much of the data demonstrates that. Children of, for example, gay couples have better outcomes than your average kid. Mm-hmm. Because they're born to very conscientious, hardworking parents.

Malcolm Collins: But then you've gotta ask, okay, well then what is causing the higher rates of abuse within gay culture?

And here, I'd say it's cultural bifurcation that you get was in gay culture. I actually think a part of the gay, the wholesome gay phenomenon, is caused by the debauched gay phenomenon, which is to say. Gays are sort of in a position that you as a straight man will never get to be in. If you want hedonism Max, you're like always better off being a gay man [00:25:00] because like you can go to a party.

Like I was just thinking like there is nothing as a straight man I can go to that's like the functional equivalent of like fire island or something like that. 100 hundred percent. Everyone's down at any time. Like, and you are the thing they desire. Like that. Is going to lead to a level of debauchery really quickly.

And because they're already breaking one sexual norm the normalization of breaking other sexual norms happened much faster was in the wider gay community. So, sort of like debauchery, maxing became a part of the gay community. And I think that the reactive, wholesome gay community is in a big way like their wholesomeness is a, is a mirror because they have seen.

The lack of satisfaction that comes out of the debauched pathway that these people often end up you know, not satisfied with the choices they made when they hit their late thirties. I. And that they're like, Hey, [00:26:00] it actually made sense to follow a lot of those other Christian

Simone Collins: people. Right? So why?

Or yeah, they, yeah, they could just be, you know, gay people who matured after having a lot of fun. And then decided that there was more, more to life than just hedonic pleasure. So

Malcolm Collins: I don't think matured is fair. I mean, I think you can mature and learn more and still choose hedonism. You know, but I, I, it's not the choice that I would make.

I, I think that saying matured over. Over centralizes our perspective, but yeah. What was the most surprising part of this for you? Because this was actually surprising to me to find, I

Simone Collins: had no idea that there was any gayness in Islam ever. Really?

Malcolm Collins: Yes. You don't see the Muslim guys like walking around holding hands all the time.

Simone Collins: Well, I don't know. Like in the kissing yeah, the kissing, the guy is just like near each other. Yeah. I don't know. Like I, I just, I just saw that as a cultural difference. I don't see that as gay. And I mean, clearly it's not, 'cause it's super not allowed,

Malcolm Collins: by the way. I mean, you super get killed for being gay in a Muslim country now, right?

Simone Collins: Yeah. So like when I, when I [00:27:00] see men in a super Islamic country holding hands, I'm like, well, they're definitely not like no homo because Oh,

Malcolm Collins: actually that's a really good point. If you look at Muslim culture now, like the culture in like Gaza or something like that, yeah. They are uniquely restrictive and have been for a long time around things like gayness.

And yet are having the opposite of cultural flourishing. They're in a state of cultural like, like drain degradation. Yeah. And you see them across some Muslim world right now. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I'd actually argue generally speaking, like I'm, I'm thinking modern times, like let's say post-industrial revolution or like around the period of the industrialization revolution of modern times.

I can't think of anywhere where faith had been heavily suppressed that produced a flourishing apart or.

Simone Collins: Well, but let's look at this from a more practical standpoint, right? So like mainstream culture permits, gayness is way too loose. What would a modern version of more a, a more hard culture that nevertheless supports [00:28:00] BT Qia Plus lifestyles.

Like, what would that look like? Would it force strict monogamy? Would it force like with ancient Rome, more of a hierarchy? What would it look like in a way that imparts fitness and, and correct for some of the damaging elements of. I mean, gay and street lifestyles?

Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, I think the, the, the commandments that you sort of have within the techno puritan tradition of, of severe austerity anti idolatry you know, these sorts of traits.

Not severe austerity, but, but austerity for the sake of austerity, you know, giving up things that, that, that make your life marginally harder but are non-destructive to you, like just not indulgent austerity. Is a powerful one. I think you know, structuring relationships the way you would with, you know, traditional straight relationships, get married, have kids, et cetera.

Simone Collins: So in other words, a good gay relationship would be just like a [00:29:00] good straight relationship, a business partnership, first and foremost, not focused on. Pleasure or fun or things like that.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Not focus on pleasure, focus on like a mutual goal for your life. I think that that would likely lead to more positive outcomes.

When I was noting like, oh, where did, people would be like, oh, you're forgetting 1950s America, like gays were not accepted there. And I'm like, yeah, but if I'm talking in like the grand scheme of human history. IE like acceptance of gays. They were actually pretty accepted. They weren't like, as extremely as accepted as they are today.

But they were probably about as accepted as they were in ancient Greece. And you're like, what? You could've been seen, but I'm also, I don't gay back then. And you could've been killed for being gay in ancient Greece. Like even I, period.

Simone Collins: The greatest generation is having a good culture. And the reason why is they created the boomers.

Yeah, they did. Like really you think that, I mean, those were the ones who really stopped having kids and you know, we, we to a great extent judge the success of a culture by the number of grandchildren they have. [00:30:00] Yeah. Boomers just don't have a lot of kids. And so the greatest generation, at least in the United States, doesn't have a lot of grandchildren, and I just don't really see that as a sign of.

Successful parenting. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I, I thought this was an interesting dive and a lot of people have expected us to flip on the gay thing, and I'm just like, it's

Simone Collins: Oh. To be like, I see that this terrible.

Malcolm Collins: Well, because they know that we flipped on the trans thing, right? Like at first we were just like, you know, transitioning kids is wrong.

Trans people in sports is wrong, but like trans adults, this is a, a real phenomenon that is not socially deleterious. Whereas now we're like, it actually appears to be a culture bound illness that leads to really high rates of Unloving ideation.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And so like, if, if doesn't even

Simone Collins: seem to create ideal outcomes for those who.

Yeah. Like, it doesn't, it doesn't seem to help anyone. It

Malcolm Collins: seems closer to if somebody has anorexia, which we argue [00:31:00] in another video, is also a culture bound illness. You know, overly represented in autistic populations, focused on body dysmorphia. Doesn't appear in most cultures, just when they contact a culture that has anorexia all this sudden it appears, is if you like, removed trans women's uterus to make them lighter, and you're like, look, they're happy with the surgery. So clearly it's a good thing that we did this. And everyone else would be like what? Or, and then you like removed one of their, you mean if you removed.

Simone Collins: Right. Anorexic women's uterus.

Malcolm Collins: Oh yeah. You, you removed like one of anorexic women's U kidney and a uterus. You're like, look, they can live without these organs. Right? Like, but, and they're happy with the surgery. And you having been an anorexic woman would be like, yeah, I'm lighter now. Like, fewer organs. Yay. Like, but, but the mere fact that they're okay with the surgery doesn't mean it's the best way we should focus on making them not anorexic.

Mm-hmm. And I point out here that like, like especially in doing this research, again, you see gayness appear everywhere. Every culture has, you know, either prohibitions against it or whatever. You, you, you, you [00:32:00] typically didn't even need prohibitions against trans this because it's just not a thing that existed historically or in any other culture, right?

You have different vendor presentations, but an obsession was being seen as a specific gender is not seen anywhere in human history or in any other culture. And everywhere the gay trans people point to it. They're just lying. Like it's clearly just twinky gay guys. If you, if you research that culture or just cross-dressers or just men who present differently it's, it's never an obsession was being seen as a specific gender to the point that you will kill yourself.

Mm-hmm. If people don't see you as that gender, which is the thing that makes it so destructive. It's the, it's the gender dysphoria that's making it so destructive. So, that's why I changed on that. I changed on that because the evidence, like as I gained access to more of it. With this, unfortunately, as I gain access to more evidence, I'm, I'm just not seeing evidence that there is a broad civilizational reason to ban this.

Simone Collins: Yeah. But there is a broad necessity [00:33:00] to for everyone to consider what, what is the hard culture version of your values? Yeah, you should not be living a soft, a soft culture life, whatever your values may be,

Malcolm Collins: and maybe don't celebrate debauchery for the sake of debauchery. Like I, I would definitely say that there are some parts of gay culture that are likely socially deleterious.

But yeah,

Simone Collins: and there are parts of street culture that are socially deleterious. Yeah. So I, I'm agnostic as to the configuration of it. So yeah, change

Malcolm Collins: your mind about anything from this conversation or not.

Simone Collins: You know, I hadn't if, if someone had been, like, if someone had made the blanket claim that every time a culture starts to accept.

Same sex relationships, it starts to fall. I wouldn't immediately have a rebuttal. I'd be a little concerned like, oh, what really? I'm not sure about that. I don't know. I'm gonna have to look this up. And I'm glad that my intuition about ancient room was correct. I I am glad that [00:34:00] basically this, your findings broadly demonstrate that it's, that the big correlary factor is not acceptance of same sex relationships.

It is acceptance of looser social norms.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And, and just, you know, the way that somebody would argue out of this, just Uhhuh so I can provide the comment. Yeah. I would go on the other side of this is, well, Rome functionally, socially collapsed long before the empire fell. Okay.

And that this social collapse happened before the Christians took power, before the restrictions on sexuality happened,

Simone Collins: and then they'd say

Malcolm Collins: of ancient Greece.

Well, you know, Alexander, the Greek Alexander did represent. A collapse of the Greek city state empire. So couldn't you say that it led to collapse in that way? And we know Sparta had basically collapsed at the powerhouse from before. Before, you know, Alexander mopped up. So can't we say that it did lead to a collapse?

And I'd be like,

Simone Collins: yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I guess, but then you just get to choose where the collapse happened to fit your timeline. Right? [00:35:00] Yeah. It's, it's just

Simone Collins: very convenient.

Malcolm Collins: I'm using AI without biasing it. I'm, I, I am saying, okay, when was Gaines accepted in one chat? And then when did it, buyers collapse in a different chat, you know?

Right. Yeah. So, so I'm basing it on what the AI has to say about this.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Which I feel more comfortable with. So, yeah. Glad you put that out there though. I guess a lot of people are gonna be so disappointed,

Malcolm Collins: so mad. Oh, Malcolm. Oh, Malcolm. Just how, how dare

Simone Collins: you say it's okay to be, to be gay.

Malcolm Collins: I love how Mad Left a skit. When, when Tism gets attention publicly,

Simone Collins: Or happy, if the attention

Malcolm Collins: is seen as negative, Reddit put us on the front page. You are the top. Dubious, which I thought was really fun. They're like, oh look, CNN's making fun of tism. And it's like, I'm sure they would like jump to our side if they realized you guys existed as a significant [00:36:00] movement.

17%. By the way, was that of Americans or who was in the sample survey? Americans,

Simone Collins: it was census representative.

Malcolm Collins: I wanted thought the world would be better without people. Yeah. Alright.

What could it be? What the heck? What is it? Toasty? It's a 12 full of cars. Okay, let's put it up on the table. Take a look. Wow. Well, what? Okay.