Intro

In contrast with yesterday’s guest, the Paris based Financial Times writer Simon Kuper, the newspaper’s London based columnist Jemima Kelly hasn’t quite given up on the United States of America. Trump, she suggests, might be the end of the line for the MAGA movement. Indeed, like another recent guest on the show, former Wired editor Peter Leyden, Kelly suggests that the Republicans might be flirting with the destruction of their brand for the next political generation. Unlike Leyden, however, Kelly isn’t particularly bullish on the future of the Democratic Party, arguing that there is a desperate need for a formal national opposition to Trump’s MAGA Republicanism. And in contrast with Leyden, Kelly doesn’t see much of an opposition - moral or otherwise - from seemingly spineless tech billionaires like Mark Zuckerberg or Marc Andreessen.

5 Key Takeaways

* Kelly is most concerned about Trump's "utter disregard for the legal system and the kind of lawlessness" that characterizes his second administration.

* She believes Democrats lack cohesive opposition structure, noting America could benefit from a shadow cabinet system like the UK's to provide clear alternative voices.

* Kelly predicts "MAGA is going to finish with Trump" as there's no viable successor who can match his charisma and stage presence.

* She criticizes tech leaders like Mark Zuckerberg for capitulating to Trump, questioning how they justify abandoning values for business interests.

* Kelly argues that maintaining moral principles is crucial for Democrats, as sinking to Trump's level only erodes institutional trust, which has already been significantly damaged.

Full Transcript

Andrew Keen: Hello, everybody. It is Wednesday, April the 23rd, 2025. Headlines today remain dominated by Donald Trump. Every story above the fold, at least above the digital fold in the Financial Times, seems to be about him. Yesterday, we talked to FT columnist Simon Cooper, a Dutchman living in Paris, who had an interesting piece earlier this week suggesting Americans should move to Europe, indicating the American dream was over. Cooper seemed to relish this news. Today, we're talking to another FT columnist, Jemima Kelly. She's based in northeast London, in Hackney, and she's talking to us today from the FT offices in the heart of London City. Jemima, what's your take on Simon's column this week? Is it indeed time for most Americans to move to Europe?

Jemima Kelly: I thought it was a very interesting column. I'm particularly interested in this idea that you discussed on your show about the brain drain that has been going in the direction of America and that might start to come back in the other direction, which I hadn't really properly considered before in those terms. But I must say that I'm not really a fan of encouraging people to all be digital nomads. He's actually followed it up with a piece today about how to be a digital nomad in Paris. I'm not really a fan of that kind of lifestyle because I think that it means people aren't particularly invested in their local communities, and I think it makes a bit of a crappy neighborhood if everyone is just working their own jobs. The dream of earning a US salary while working remotely living in Europe—I'm just like, please don't do that because then we're just importing inequality.

Andrew Keen: Although to be fair, was Simon actually saying that?

Jemima Kelly: I think he did say that the ultimate life, the ultimate arbitrage was doing that. And it's true, it is the ultimate arbitrage. It's just not one that I would particularly want people to pursue. It's like the Airbnb culture—it's destroyed a lot of cities and priced out local people, meaning certain cities you visit have no locals, just tourists, which is quite crap as a tourist.

Andrew Keen: I guess the other critique of Simon's piece, which is an extension of yours, is for Americans who don't like Trump—and there are many, including myself—it's not time to move to Europe. It's not time to retreat. It is time to stay and fight and try to change America. So there's no reason why you have to shift. Jemima, you're a columnist at what you call on your X account "Friends of the Deep State" (FT). I'm using you as the voice of the European deep state. What's the take from London on Trump on April 23, 2025? It's so hard to make any sense of it. In a meta sense, in a structural sense, what's your take on what's happening?

Jemima Kelly: I'm going to answer that in three parts. First, the "Friends of the Deep State" is obviously a reference to Liz Truss, who referred to the FT as the deep state.

Andrew Keen: I want to come on to Truss later, another rather clownish character, your version of Donald Trump.

Jemima Kelly: Yes, Britain's proudest export. Second, I would probably not want to speak for Europe or Britain. Maybe I can start by saying what I think the mood is.

Andrew Keen: You live in Hackney in northeast London, so maybe you can speak on behalf of Hackney. What's the take on Trump from Hackney?

Jemima Kelly: Just utter dismay. And I mean, I would say that's probably the mood I'm getting, even from people who thought there was too much hyperbole used about Trump in the run-up to his election. I didn't think comparisons to Hitler were particularly helpful.

Andrew Keen: You're not alone. We've had that conversation many times on the show. I strongly agree with you.

Jemima Kelly: So while there were people who were very hysterical about the idea of a Trump 2.0 being worse than the first time, I think so far, it does seem kind of worse, doesn't it?

Andrew Keen: I'm asking you.

Jemima Kelly: I would say there is a sense that things are quite scary at the moment. I think what I personally find most worrying, and that many balanced people are talking about, is the utter disregard for the courts and the rule of law. I was amazed looking at Truth Social earlier. I saw a post from Trump about an alleged MS-13 gang member.

Andrew Keen: The Venezuelan who was illegally extradited or seized and taken to El Salvador.

Jemima Kelly: I think this guy is actually Salvadoran. Trump has posted a picture of an alleged knuckle tattoo with four symbols which some people have extrapolated to mean MS-13. It's very obviously just computer-generated text superimposed on the image. Trump has posted it and appears to believe this is actually tattooed onto the man's knuckles, using that as justification. I think the utter disregard for the legal system and the lawlessness of Trump 2.0 is for me the most disturbing aspect because where does that end? It's just utter chaos.

I might write this week about how Trump sees the world as just deal-making and transactions. The ends will always justify the means. He's openly saying he's going to keep pushing as hard as he can to get what he wants. But his followers, who are constantly rushing to justify everything he does, including his vice president, are glorifying the means themselves, which Trump himself doesn't even really believe in. People are willing to take what he says at face value and make it happen, like Vance going to Greenland on this supposed visit.

Andrew Keen: You said in an excellent column earlier this month that Vance has "the zeal of the convert" and that's the problem.

Jemima Kelly: Yes, because he once called Trump "America's Hitler."

Andrew Keen: And he didn't mean it in a complimentary way.

Jemima Kelly: I don't think he did.

Andrew Keen: So, Jemima, stand back a little. Simon noted that he'd always believed in America growing up. A lot of his friends went to America. You're a slightly younger generation from Simon. When you graduated from university, did a lot of your friends go to America? Did you ever think maybe you should go to America as a singer or a journalist?

Jemima Kelly: Did any of my friends? It's quite difficult as a British person going to America. Quite a few of my friends have ended up there, particularly in LA for some reason. I almost moved to New York with my previous employer, Reuters, and have considered it, but wanted to stay in London. I love America; it's a completely amazing and fascinating place. But it does feel like people I speak to at the moment are feeling concerned. Someone in New Orleans told me that when conservative columnists in the New York Times are writing that it's time for some kind of uprising...

Andrew Keen: That was David Brooks. And Simon wrote about a friend of his in Georgia who said he couldn't even go out because he was scared to bump into Trump people.

Jemima Kelly: I saw that. That's not how I personally believe that divisions should be handled. The idea that you shouldn't go out because you might bump into some Trump fans—I don't know about that.

Andrew Keen: I couldn't agree more. Your last column, in the spirit of Easter, was titled "It's the hope that saves you." It was a broader column, not just about America. But do you still have a vestige, a glimmer of hope in America? Have you given up?

Jemima Kelly: Oh, God, yes, I still have hope. I am an optimist. But I also believe that being optimistic and hopeful, which as I explain in the column are slightly different things, gives you a higher chance of things going well. If you don't resort to cynicism and nihilism, which I don't think is particularly helpful.

Another column I would like to write in the coming weeks is that I am becoming convinced that MAGA is going to finish with Trump. There is no MAGA after Trump. One thing that convinced me of this was listening to the "Triggered" podcast with Donald Trump Jr. I tried to listen to a range of podcasts, some more painful than others, and I listened to a full episode the other day and couldn't believe the level of imbecility.

Andrew Keen: Well, we know what you mean anyway, even if that isn't the word.

Jemima Kelly: And he's the best friend of the vice president, who's supposedly this genius.

Andrew Keen: I'm sure in a year or two JD will have moved on to other "best friends."

Jemima Kelly: Maybe, but I think they've been friends for a while. The thing with Trump is that he masks so much with his charisma and stage presence and what he calls "flexibility," not U-turning. And his people skills. Then you get the distilled version of him without all of that, and it's just so painfully bad and unpersuasive. There's no successor. Vance is the only one who the bookies currently have as the favorite, but that's because there's no leader on the other side; we don't know who the Democratic leader is.

Andrew Keen: Peter Leyden, who was on the show a few days ago, the former editor-in-chief of Wired, believes that Trump is essentially destroying the Republican brand for a generation. It does provide an opportunity for the Democrats in the long term, although the Democrats probably have many problems of their own. Do you agree that ultimately the Republican brand has been decimated and is headed for 20 or 30 years of political isolation?

Jemima Kelly: I think what they have going for them is that MAGA has its own name—there was always the MAGA part of the Republican Party and then the "other part" and the RINOs. Now they have somewhat merged, but I imagine that will start to separate if the Trump project keeps doing as badly as it seems to be. But it doesn't feel like there's any separation now between Trump and the institutions that are supposedly independent, with the Fed being an exception despite his saying he'd terminate Powell and then claiming the press made a big deal of it. It does feel like it will be difficult for Republicans to extricate themselves from Trump. There isn't anyone standing up and being vocally anti-Trump on that side at the moment.

Andrew Keen: You noted that your satirical X profile "Friends of the Deep State" was borrowed from Liz Truss, who made a fool of herself and now is in political exile. Can we learn anything from the Truss fiasco? It seems to me as if Trump a couple of weeks ago on the bond front was, so to speak, "Trussed"—the market spoke and he had to retreat. Can we learn anything from recent British political or economic history to make sense of what's happening in the US, particularly in terms of Truss, who was humiliated by the markets?

Jemima Kelly: Trump has the advantage of shamelessness, doesn't he?

Andrew Keen: So you're saying that Liz Truss is not shameless?

Jemima Kelly: That's a very good point. You could see the embarrassment on her face. Maybe that is just my projection of how I would feel.

Andrew Keen: For people just listening, it's a picture of Liz Truss in New York with a MAGA hat on looking like a complete idiot.

Jemima Kelly: Just before the inauguration saying, "It can't come soon enough."

Andrew Keen: And she says "the West needs it," whatever that means.

Jemima Kelly: She's constantly "saving the West." She was at a Bitcoin conference last weekend giving a speech on saving the West. It's really exciting that we have such capable hands to save the West.

Andrew Keen: Especially at the Bitcoin conference.

Jemima Kelly: Exactly. They're the real people to do it. What can we learn from Truss? What we can learn, and this takes us into the Democrats, is that a few people have floated the idea that America should have some form of shadow cabinet. One of the reasons that Truss lasted for only 42 days—less than the lettuce—was that we have such a vocal opposition in this country. It's very clear who the spokesperson is from the opposing party. So when a journalist is writing a story about Truss's mini budget, right away, you've got the shadow chancellor to tell you why it's a terrible idea. In America, it's not so clear, and I think that's a disadvantage.

Andrew Keen: You wrote an excellent column in the last month on why America needs a "serious opposition."

Jemima Kelly: It really opened my eyes, this idea of the shadow cabinet. Obviously, the government has a different structure in the US, and it's not a monarchy, etc. But the idea of some form—even if just in name only—if the Democrats were able to put forward a representative for each of the major government departments, it would help. It made me think that American media often sees itself as "the resistance"—the media is the resistance. I feel like our job is to report the news. Too often it feels like the media was trying to stop Trump from getting reelected or trying to hide that Biden was too old for another four years. The media is far too often doing the work that an opposition should be doing.

It dawned on me that this is partly because of the lack of structure that we have with the constant back and forth. As a journalist, rather than having to explain why the Liz Truss mini-budget was bad, you've got someone on the other side to tell you. The Democrats are in disarray. Usually, there's nothing like a common enemy to unite you, and Trump should be that. Amid the tariffs, the trade war, the deportation of immigrants, threats to deport others to horrific Salvadoran prisons—if there were a time to be united, it would be now. This is peak Trump fear, and yet the Democrats have record low approval ratings among their supporters. A Gallup poll showed Republican approval of their congressmen is at 76 percent while Democrats are at 39 percent among Democrats. There is a real void of cohesive or coherent opposition.

Andrew Keen: You've been quite critical of the Democrats. Back in July, you talked about the "Biden debacle" and the absurdity of a man clearly out of his depth. But you've also written more recently about Democrats not abandoning their morals. When historians look back, how much of a debacle was the Biden regime? Will it be seen as the trigger that enabled Trump 2.0, or would these things be seen separately?

Jemima Kelly: I don't think it was Biden's administration; I think it was the cover-up of his physical decline.

Andrew Keen: I wasn't surprised by that debate he had with Trump. He clearly was way beyond his shelf life. It was self-evident if you watched interviews with him.

Jemima Kelly: It was already evident. I got into trouble for talking about this before the 2020 election because he had gotten the name of an interviewer wrong, and fact-checking organizations rushed in to say he hadn't. They were lying on his behalf, which shocked me.

Andrew Keen: Does that make Trump's point on Truth Social that the media is really the Democratic party, or the two are inseparable?

Jemima Kelly: It's funny because every time I've written about this, I've gotten pushback. I was the first "ritual sacrifice" on BlueSky a few months ago because I dared to say it was an echo chamber. Apparently, I implied that I wanted more Nazis on BlueSky, which is obviously sarcasm. One thing I find interesting—if you type "New York Times" into BlueSky, you'll get people complaining about how pro-Trump they are or how they're "both-sides-ists." If you type "New York Times" into X, you'll get people complaining about how anti-Trump they are and how it's just an extension of the Democratic Party.

I think there's something like 3-4% of American journalists who vote Republican, so clearly, the media does lean left or Democrat. Trump is now letting really marginal right-wing news outlets into his briefings, which in some ways I don't think is all bad. I think it would be good to have a more balanced media.

Andrew Keen: You wrote a good piece in December, "Democrats must not abandon their morals," which I guess goes without saying. There are still morals in the Republican party. Well, certainly ex-Republicans like David Brooks and Peter Wehner seem to be the most convincingly moral Americans. But that's another issue. What advice would you give the Democrats? On one hand, you've got a civil war within the party between its left—Bernie Sanders and AOC—versus centrists. They agree on almost nothing apart from being in the same big tent party. What advice would you give Democrats?

Jemima Kelly: I don't feel in a position to give advice.

Andrew Keen: What would you like to see then?

Jemima Kelly: Just to be clear about the "Democrats shouldn't abandon their morals" column, that was written after Biden pardoned his son Hunter, which I found uncool. I hate that. I was arguing that if you're going to talk about how immoral the Trump project is and how full of lies it is—and it is all those things—then you have to show that you're better. I felt that was a failure during the first Trump term.

I think outlets like the New York Times are doing better this time around. But there was an op-ed written after the first Trump victory about how objectivity needed to be abandoned, like there was a new game to play. I think that's really short-termist and will set a terrible precedent. Trump has come in again on the back of a massive loss of trust in institutions, which was already happening but was made worse by COVID—all the debates about origins, vaccines, etc. That chipped away at trust in science, government, and institutions in general.

I write a lot about virtue and honor. I just wrote about hope. I don't think we think about values enough. Only the right in America seems to talk about religion. I'm not even a Christian myself—I was raised Catholic but don't consider myself that anymore—but I feel that values and morality aren't spoken about enough. The Democrats need to take the high ground. They were pulling up placards saying "Lie" at Trump's address to Congress, wearing colors to represent protest. AOC was doing videos saying "choose your fighter," trying to appeal to young people. It was all so cringe and inauthentic. When Trump is being seen as authentic, and Bernie Sanders, who does come across as authentic, there's such a vacuum of authenticity.

Andrew Keen: You noted that one of the reasons why Trump is so successful is his eccentricity. That's one of his attractive qualities. A couple of quick questions before we go. You're at the FT, so you're supposed to understand the global economy. Back in September, you talked about America's crypto election. I have a nagging suspicion that crypto might be one of the things that ultimately blows up Trump. There is a lot of fraud within the administration on crypto, with some people making vast fortunes. Trump or his administration is in bed with the Bitcoin bros. What do you make of this association? Because Trump historically has always been ambivalent about crypto. Is this a sideshow or could it become the main show?

Jemima Kelly: I don't think it could become the main show just because crypto is still not systemically important enough. If we compare it to the trade war, it pales in comparison in terms of numbers. The IMF downgrading forecasts by one percentage point for the US—that is far more likely to bring down Trump economically.

Andrew Keen: Could we be seeing a restructuring of the global financial economy where crypto becomes an alternative to the Fed, given Trump's hostility towards the Fed?

Jemima Kelly: God, no, not in my opinion. My ultimate point with crypto—and by the way, people who believe in Bitcoin (and I use the word "believe" deliberately because I do regard it as a belief system) think that Bitcoin is different from other crypto because it's the first one and will only have 21 million coins ever minted. But these are just strings of digits. Then someone comes along and says, "oh no, Bitcoin and Ethereum," and someone else adds Dogecoin as well.

These aren't companies like the S&P 500 where there's a finite list. Each of these coins does absolutely nothing, and there's no limit to the number that can exist. I could speak about crypto for hours, but I always come back to the fact that there is no scarcity. Bitcoiners hate when I say this because they claim Bitcoin is different. There is no limit to the number of cryptocurrencies that can exist. If you look at CoinMarketCap.com, they used to count how many cryptocurrencies there were, but I think it got embarrassing because the counter disappeared. There are tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands at this point. How can there be value when there's no scarcity?

Andrew Keen: I hope you're right on that front. Finally, you've been very critical of Silicon Valley and big tech. You wrote a piece recently on Mark Zuckerberg caving into Trump. Zuckerberg caved in, Bezos appears to have with the Washington Post, some law firms have, some haven't. Do you think this will come back to haunt opportunists like Zuckerberg? Is it in the interest, not just moral but economic, of American business leaders, university leaders, and heads of law firms to stand up to all this nonsense?

Jemima Kelly: I think so, yes. We have so glorified wealth that people only seem to think value exists in financial terms. If I were Mark Zuckerberg, I would care about what people thought of me, but that's even superficial. I would care about being able to sleep well at night. I don't know how these people justify it.

I heard a Mark Andreessen podcast a few months ago where he said, "The one thing people don't understand about billionaires is they don't care about money. They just want people to like them." I thought that was really interesting, but it doesn't seem to match their actions.

Andrew Keen: Well, we probably should end. I'm not sure if you've written any columns on Musk, but he seems to represent all of this. He's clearly distancing himself from Trump, just as Trump is distancing himself from Musk. Are we beginning to see the end of this love affair between the Musks and the Andreessens with Trump?

Jemima Kelly: It's interesting because Musk was supposedly the savior of electric cars, but the current-day Musk would be so skeptical of electric cars. It's weird that he was that guy and now has to keep being that guy to a certain extent because it's his brand. I think he's been radicalized by people not liking him, and he's being pushed further into this corner because he wants to feel part of a tribe. Now he feels like he fits in at Mar-a-Lago and hangs out with Trump.

Do I think that's the end of their relationship? It's hard to know. I wouldn't be surprised if they did fall out quite soon. But they're both very strange people, aren't they?

Andrew Keen: To put it mildly. You've got a big picture of the two of them in a Tesla on the cover of the Financial Times. I think they're both secretly fans of Millwall Football Club with their famous song "Nobody Loves Us, We Don't Care."

Jemima Kelly: What?

Andrew Keen: I'm joking, but maybe the same is true of Donald Trump and certainly Elon Musk.

Jemima Kelly: They care so much. That's what's funny. Trump cares more than anyone about people loving him. I think that's what drives him. He really wants to be seen as a good president, which comforts me when things are going badly because I think he wants people to love him. He really wants the Nobel Peace Prize, which is hilarious, but he does want that.

Andrew Keen: Well, one thing we've resolved today is that Donald Trump is not a fan of Millwall Football Club. He wants everybody to love him. He does care if they don't. Jemima, I know you don't really care because you're someone who will always say what you think. We'll have to get you back on the show for The View from London. Not an eccentric view, but an irreverent view. Thank you so much, Jemima Kelly, columnist of the FT. We will have you back on the show. Keep well.

Jemima Kelly: Thank you, you too.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit keenon.substack.com/subscribe