In this episode, we talk to David Phelan, music producer and songwriter for Zayn, Sia, and Blackpink, who was on a recent Jhourney retreat. He shares how music, psychedelics, and a challenging time led him from identifying as a confident materialist to a regular meditator. He developed panic attacks, and then cured himself by intentionally inducing and observing them in meditation. For the first two thirds of the interview, I ask him detailed questions about his background, habits, and decisions that led him to where his meditation practice is today. In the final third of the interview, he shares how his recent jhana experience was as personally significant as his wedding day, and how he hopes to use jhanas to make music with less fear.

00:00 - Introduction and Background

06:30 - The Role of Music in Profound Altered States

08:44 - Growing Up in Ireland

11:45 - Transition from Materialist Worldview (Pre-2018)

13:55 - Diving into Music: Collaborations with Zayn, Sia, Nicki Minaj, Blackpink

18:08 - Concert Peak Experience: Turning to Wim Hof, Yoga, and Cold Showers

21:55 - Personal Growth: From 2 Million to 60 Million Followers and a 2-Hour Morning Routine

24:55 - The Bootstrap Problem and Catalyzing Peak Experiences

28:15 - Rational Approach to 'Woo' Content with a Focus on Experience

34:02 - Meditation: Confronting Fear and Creating Fearlessly

39:05 - First-Time Panic Attacks and Aversion to Altered States, Exploring the Phenomenology of Anxiety

46:20 - Overcoming Panic Attacks with Teachings from Mingyur Rinpoche and the Timing of Life Lessons

51:20 - Observing Panic Attacks Over 50 Times in Real-Time

56:00 - Discovering Teachings from Rob Burbea and Ram Dass: Moving Beyond State Chasing

1:00:05 - Using Meditation as an Inner Resource During a Friend's Death

1:03:40 - Experiences with Jhana Meditation

1:10:00 - Paradigm Shift in Intention During Jhourney's Retreat

1:16:50 - Deep Connection to Self and One of the Most Profound Life Experiences