That gives us a sense of what we're even trying at, right, because I think once you have language absolutely has its faults and we have to default to experience and for lack of a better word to vibe sometimes right, and we also need a sense of saying what you just did right there feels to me like you crossed this particular boundary or that we need to go back to how we're relating to one another, etc. So the framework really matters so that we have something, so we have a language through which we can communicate our sense of what's working and what's not working, and then again, going back to experience is really important, which is why I think working on the neither nor approach does have to be embodied and social and also public, and yeah, this is why I love what we're doing in terms of just excavating it out and going from all sorts of directions and coming back to what the purpose here is. Yeah,

I think it's really important too, and just I suppose that it's iterative, not just in your individual life, but as you were saying in terms of resolving conflicts or within group dynamics I think are just critically important to it. I'm really interested in this argument that cognition starts in language that it comes out of conversation, and only later as we come to be able to have conversations with ourselves does something like what we experience as thinking that it's first social and only later an ability that we can kind of go off and do on our own, and I think if that's the case, then it's really important to understand how it works socially and what we can learn if that is its origin, as opposed to assuming the end point that we're at now must be the starting point, there's something very odd about assuming it's like saying, well, we see cars today so they must always have been here. Well, no.

I just love how we've now come back to dependent origination and backwards causality because that's exactly what you're pointing to right now, this assumption we've got it wrong, and I really want to come back to in a whole new conversation to the idea of intersubjectivity being the beginning. We start in an intersubjective state, we come out of mom's body and that the first kind of experience is intersubjective, it is not independent, it is not pulled away from that. It's entirely dependent. So, ontogenetically it is, and then we can of course talk about it evolutionarily where it's all social, we are evolved to be that, so let's put a bookmark in there and really come back to it, I can't wait, I don't know how I'm supposed to wait for a week before we talk about this more, but it's a good place to stop, I think.

Yes, thank you so much.

Thank you, Brian. Okay. Thank you.