Navigating the Stages of Meditation | 8min snip from Clearer Thinking with Spencer Greenberg

Speaker 2
tell us about what the different stages are, and as you understand them. Obviously, you know the there's nuance that, you know, maybe you don't uderstand, maybe almost nobody understands. But i'd like to hear aout what you understand about thedifrent stages, and then also about some of the techniques used on that path.
Speaker 1
Yes, i i can't remember ther all f the different stages, but theyre in in one model, at least the 16 stages. And the claim is that everyone goes through the stages in the same order. And you know that there's different. The stageis line up with different things. T a, you've notice like you noticing independence of different sensory experiences carsing other sensory experiences. So
Speaker 2
that's to clarify that. That's the idea that we often feel like maybe a thought just pops intor head randomly, or a feeling just occurse randomly. But if you pay really close attention to what's going on your mind, you realize that most f the time, maybe all the time, i'm not sure, there's actually something that preceded that. Like, oh, i didn't just feel a random emotion. There was like a thought that occurred, and that's why i felt the emotion. And then the thought wasn't totally random. There was actually, i looked at something in the corner of my eye that reminded me of something. That's why i had that thought. And so ontat, there's this kind of chain of causality. Is that what you're gtting at? Ye,
Speaker 1
exactlyan it's the same kind o in tit that would tring toe wer to have in the early stages of cognative bavo therapy. It's the same thing produced in a different contentsae's a relationship between thoughts and feelings and bavi rit
Speaker 2
ca cogn berabtherapy. One of the key ideas is that your thoughts change how you feel, right? Like, if i've the thought, i'm such a loser, that's wat make me feel bad, how do you feel, changes how you behave. Like, if if i'm feeling really low, then i maybe will turn down my friends request to go hang out, because i'm like, i'm not in a good mood, and i can enjoy it. And then your behaviors affect what thoughts you have, because, you knowoh, you've just sat at home playing video games all night, and you might think, oh, man, i've just wasted my whole night, right? And then that kees back into your feelings. So it's a kind of a circular, you know, feelings to thoughts to behaviors to feelings tof thoughts and so on. And that's essentially a mack reversion of this micro level insight and meditation, where you're watching that happened, having real time in your mind. Would you say, that's right? Ye,
Speaker 1
exactly. Sai so iat a hu olaps, at least at that point between now itis ancient paffs of meditation and modern saty te but didiffent gos i guess that's
Speaker 2
wo, the things i find so fascenating about buddhism is that it's almost like ancient psychology, essentially
Speaker 1
ahead of thetone. So n't how much detail you want in stage. I can't remember too much. I cound look it up and go through som morothe. Well,
Speaker 2
we'll just tell us about, like some maybe coul tell us about some of the early stages. Yesso.
Speaker 1
That's that's one of the arly stages. Another one is arising and passing away, where you just start to notice things moving much more quickly. And often climaxs in some dramatic experience. Andd i am sure, meditators on this pat wat say the experience i had in my second retreat was in a rising passi away. And people wo walk away from a retreat saing, this amazing thing happened to pe claim. But yet, that's n arising away experience. Can
Speaker 2
you unpack that? Llabot, theyr, rising and passing away. What does that mean exactly? Ah,
Speaker 1
a, the definitions i've seen are so broad that it's really hard to describe. And i can't remember too much of it. But when i've heard t it was kind of described in yet, it ut o beings som peque experience that you wouldn't usually have an, you know, it could be rushing physical sensations, or some energy exploding through, you know, your spine, up through your head. And, oh,
Speaker 2
so a kind of a dramatic internal experience. Yes,
Speaker 1
ye,
Speaker 2
got it. Yes.
Speaker 1
Thet's haw, some people describe it. And then from memory, after that comes this, like, a series of stages they call the duge, nos and er. And yet, theyre all that fear, bot like fear, misery and disgust. So, so this is when the dark night essentially bet where people it colik, you know, people get tempted to roll up their meditation at get out of their iesta to get it can potentially be terrifying. And, yes, that's the stage t can push through, but bhut people can get stuck there. What
Speaker 2
kind of experiences might someone have at that stage? Woud you give more specific examples? I think, i
Speaker 1
think the most common one is some sort of dissolution of the feeling of being aself. That doesn't feel good. That is kind of terrifying. Andif i've had, i've had experiences where i'm focusing on my breath, and all of a sudden it feels like there's no one there paying attention to it. And it's not coincident with something pleasurable at all. It's terrifying. And can feel out the're going to die or disappear. And that's when they briak out and go and talk to the ae iy hav a good picture whe can guide you through it. But
Speaker 2
they view that as sort of an essential part of the whole process, because it's, that's just the stage that everyone hets in this model. L, right,
Speaker 1
yes, according to this pat bout, the terrabata, the burmese terrabata path, yet, it's sst inevitable you're go throughit. And i think it is quite i think you do se in a lot of traditions, and many people do think it's inevitable. Thin i would hypothesise that the vast matori of people would have something a bit scared. See,
Speaker 2
that's so interesting, because when you hear about meditation in a kind of western context, it's usually so light and fluffy, and there's no talk about these, like, bizarre, upsetting experiences, or fear, or disgust, or tis pleasant disillusion from yourself. And what do you make of that?
Speaker 1
Yes, it's interesting. And i mean, i cant ofside on the sam harris perspective, that things that are broadly good for us, like exercise, i're going to have some downsi tat you going to get in while you do it. So i'm not too concerned about it, because
Speaker 2
they're doing something, and like or something does the more potential thas to cause good and harm. Pysically, yes,
Speaker 1
thin things can go wrong. And v had a meditation teatior who just puts it in, if he frames it as, you know, you mixing o, youre tinkering with this, like, fundamental machinery of your mind. Ow, you noli foundational ponceptions of why things are like selthea will at ter, and things bound to get shycompitence, and it's ging to be scared when, when, especially the firs time happens, its going to be scared. But hofully, you get used to lhasy experiences as you getmor but
Speaker 2
that really gives, i feel, like, an analogue to something like psychidalic ri, which you're also sort of shaking it up, in a sense. And ta might expect that could also help explain why some of the experiences people have in sychadal seem to mirror the experiences toy have meditation.
Speaker 1
Yes, totally. I think the only thing that is more scary on a meditation retreat is that you don't have that excuse of, well, i've taken thi sachidelico. I will come downit soon. It's much easier on a retreat. Yu could think shedefirly crazyin ges better. You
Speaker 2
cauld see how that would creat a spiral of terrererand
Speaker 1
an i ben. But a good, good tature will remind you the lovely, sublime experience you had before this. You've probably noticed that faded, and miss liti fade as well.
Speaker 2
Do people have dissociation experiences that you've seen?
Speaker 1
Yes, yes, totally. I don't mean, has that's a pretty common one in the darko and i think theeis a strange overlat betweenoe ten nine associated disorder. I think it is in he dasim bi and youkno, some of these military experiences. Do you

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