
Paul Craven & Rory Sutherland on Magic & Alchemy
The Human Risk Podcast
The Walton 10 Foot Rule
People like and appreciate polite good manners. It reflects in their conscious or more likely they're unconscious response to how good was your service when you went there today. I have another heuristic that I use when I'm it and I use this a lot in business. Walmart has a something foot rule where you have to acknowledge a customer if you're within a certain radius. They made sure that everybody made a point of doing that. That small, little change in behavior for the staff meant that they would proceed as being the most fantastic service providers.
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Most people need to go to some sort of therapist just to hear these questions asked for the first time. Such questions are important because they illuminate what we consider success or failure. Why do you feel angry? Is it because you failed to achieve some goal? Why do you feel lethargic and uninspired? Is it because you don't think you're good enough? This layer of questioning helps us understand the root cause of the emotions that overwhelm us. Once we understand that root cause, we can ideally do something to change it. But there's another, even deeper level of the self-awareness onion. And that one is full of fucking tears. The third level is our personal values. Why do I consider this to be success or failure? How am I choosing to measure myself? By what standard am I judging myself and everyone around me? This level, which takes constant questioning and effort, is incredibly difficult to reach. But it's the most important because our values determine the nature of our problems and the nature of our problems determines the quality of our lives. Values underlie everything we are and do. If what we value is unhelpful, if what we consider success or failure is poorly chosen, then everything based upon those values, the thoughts, the emotions, the day to day feelings, will all be out of whack. Everything we think and feel about a situation ultimately comes back to how valuable we perceive it to be. Most people are horrible at answering these why questions accurately, and this prevents them from achieving a deeper knowledge of their own values. Sure, they may say they value honesty and a true friend, but then they turn around and lie about you behind your back to make themselves feel better. People may perceive that they feel lonely. But when they ask themselves why they feel lonely, they tend to come up with a way to blame others, everyone else is mean, or no one is cool or smart enough to understand them, and thus they further avoid their problem instead of seeking to solve it. For many people this passes as self-awareness. And yet, if they were able to go deeper and look at their underlying values, they would see that their original analysis was based on avoiding responsibility for their own problem, rather than accurately identifying the problem. They would see that their decisions were based on chasing highs, not generating true happiness. Most self-help gurus ignore this deeper level of self-awareness as well. They take people who are miserable because they want to be rich, and then give them all sorts of advice on how to make more money, all the while ignoring important values-based questions. Why do they feel such a need to be rich in the first place? How are they choosing to measure success or failure for themselves? Is it not perhaps some particular value that's the root cause of their unhappiness, and not the fact that they don't drive a Bentley yet? Much of the advice out there operates at a shallow level of simply trying to make people feel good in the short term, while the real long-term problems never get solved. People's perceptions and feelings may change, but the underlying values, and the metrics by which those values are assessed, stay the same. This is not real progress. This is just another way to achieve more highs. Honest self-questioning is difficult. It requires asking yourself simple questions that are uncomfortable to answer. In fact, in my experience, the more uncomfortable the answer, the more likely it is to be true. Take a moment and think of something that's really bugging you. Now ask yourself why it bugs you. Chances are the answer will involve a failure of some sort. Then take that failure and ask why it seems true to you. What if that failure wasn't really a failure? What if you've been looking at it the wrong way? A recent example from my own life. It bugs me that my brother doesn't return my texts or emails. Why? Because it feels like he doesn't give a shit about me. Why does this seem true? Because if he wanted to have a relationship with me, he would take 10 seconds out of his day to interact with me. Why does his lack of relationship with you feel like a failure? Because we're brothers, we're supposed to have a good relationship. Two things are operating here, a value that I hold dear, and a metric that I use to assess progress toward that value. My value, brothers are supposed to have a good relationship with one another. My metric, being in contact by phone or email, this is how I measure my success as a brother. By holding onto this metric, I make myself feel like a failure, which occasionally ruins my Saturday mornings.
What do Magic and Alchemy have to do with human decision-making?
This episode — the 200th! — is the second part of a discussion with Paul Craven and Rory Sutherland. If you missed the first episode, I recommend starting with that, as some topics flow across both halves. You'll find it here:
https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/rory-sutherland-paul-craven-on-alchemy-magic/
Paul began his career in Finance with over 30 years working for Schroders, PIMCO and Goldman Sachs and now works in Behavioural Science. Rory is the author of Alchemy: The Surprising Power of Ideas That Don't Make Sense and the Vice Chairman of Ogilvy.
Links that are relevant to the show:
Paul Craven - https://www.paulcraven.com/
Rory Sutherland - https://www.linkedin.com/in/rorysutherland/?
Rory's book Alchemy - https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/430379/alchemy-by-rory-sutherland/9780753556528
The Walton Ten Foot Rule - https://www.walmartmuseum.com/content/walmartmuseum/en_us/timeline/decades/1980/artifact/2648.html#:~:text=The%2010%2Dfoot%20Rule%20is,if%20I%20can%20help%20them.%E2%80%9D
Deirdre McCloskey on 'Sweet Talk' - https://www.deirdremccloskey.com/docs/humanomics.pdf
An interview with Kumal Gahotra of Ford where he talks about the emotions involved in customer's car purchasing decisions: https://s23.q4cdn.com/799033206/files/doc_events/archive/Ford-2019-JPM-Auto-Conference-Transcript.pdf
An article on FAB - Features, Advantages & Benefits - https://www.scottyschindler.com/selling-with-fab-features-advantages-and-benefits/
The David Ogilvy advertisement for Rolls Royce that references the noise the clock makes: https://swiped.co/file/rolls-royce-ad-by-david-ogilvy/
The Chanson de Roland - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Song_of_Roland
Jean-Paul Sartre - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Paul_Sartre
The Theatre of the Absurd - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theatre_of_the_absurd Franz Kafka - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafka
Tristan Harris' article on how technology is hijacking our minds - https://medium.com/thrive-global/how-technology-hijacks-peoples-minds-from-a-magician-and-google-s-design-ethicist-56d62ef5edf3
Morgan Housel's book The Psychology of Money - https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_Psychology_of_Money/5HrrDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0
A video demonstrating Tesla's Dog Mode - https://youtu.be/T2rbdMlmpYY
Joshua Jay 'How Magicians Think' - https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/magic-books/how-magicians-think/
Scott McCloud's book 'Understanding Comics' - https://scottmccloud.com/2-print/1-uc/index.html
To hear previous episodes of the show featuring:
Paul - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/paul-craven-on-magic-money/
Rory - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/rory-sutherland-on-compliance/
Rory & Gerald Ashley Part One - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/rory-sutherland-gerald-ashley/
Rory & Gerald Ashley Part Two - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/gerald-ashley-rory-sutherland/
Paul & Gerald Ashley Part One - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/gerald-ashley-paul-craven/
Paul & Gerald Ashley Part Two - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/paul-craven-gerald-ashley/
This episode — the 200th! — is the second part of a discussion with Paul Craven and Rory Sutherland. If you missed the first episode, I recommend starting with that, as some topics flow across both halves. You'll find it here:
https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/rory-sutherland-paul-craven-on-alchemy-magic/
Paul began his career in Finance with over 30 years working for Schroders, PIMCO and Goldman Sachs and now works in Behavioural Science. Rory is the author of Alchemy: The Surprising Power of Ideas That Don't Make Sense and the Vice Chairman of Ogilvy.
Links that are relevant to the show:
Paul Craven - https://www.paulcraven.com/
Rory Sutherland - https://www.linkedin.com/in/rorysutherland/?
Rory's book Alchemy - https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/430379/alchemy-by-rory-sutherland/9780753556528
The Walton Ten Foot Rule - https://www.walmartmuseum.com/content/walmartmuseum/en_us/timeline/decades/1980/artifact/2648.html#:~:text=The%2010%2Dfoot%20Rule%20is,if%20I%20can%20help%20them.%E2%80%9D
Deirdre McCloskey on 'Sweet Talk' - https://www.deirdremccloskey.com/docs/humanomics.pdf
An interview with Kumal Gahotra of Ford where he talks about the emotions involved in customer's car purchasing decisions: https://s23.q4cdn.com/799033206/files/doc_events/archive/Ford-2019-JPM-Auto-Conference-Transcript.pdf
An article on FAB - Features, Advantages & Benefits - https://www.scottyschindler.com/selling-with-fab-features-advantages-and-benefits/
The David Ogilvy advertisement for Rolls Royce that references the noise the clock makes: https://swiped.co/file/rolls-royce-ad-by-david-ogilvy/
The Chanson de Roland - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Song_of_Roland
Jean-Paul Sartre - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Paul_Sartre
The Theatre of the Absurd - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theatre_of_the_absurd Franz Kafka - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafka
Tristan Harris' article on how technology is hijacking our minds - https://medium.com/thrive-global/how-technology-hijacks-peoples-minds-from-a-magician-and-google-s-design-ethicist-56d62ef5edf3
Morgan Housel's book The Psychology of Money - https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_Psychology_of_Money/5HrrDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0
A video demonstrating Tesla's Dog Mode - https://youtu.be/T2rbdMlmpYY
Joshua Jay 'How Magicians Think' - https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/magic-books/how-magicians-think/
Scott McCloud's book 'Understanding Comics' - https://scottmccloud.com/2-print/1-uc/index.html
To hear previous episodes of the show featuring:
Paul - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/paul-craven-on-magic-money/
Rory - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/rory-sutherland-on-compliance/
Rory & Gerald Ashley Part One - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/rory-sutherland-gerald-ashley/
Rory & Gerald Ashley Part Two - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/gerald-ashley-rory-sutherland/
Paul & Gerald Ashley Part One - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/gerald-ashley-paul-craven/
Paul & Gerald Ashley Part Two - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/paul-craven-gerald-ashley/